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View Full Version : So, how's Paul Martin doing anyway?



Kelisis
07-24-2005, 07:33 AM
Editorial in today's Sun:


Today, just to be different, let's ignore the ongoing media gang tackle of Conservative Leader Stephen Harper and focus our attention instead on Prime Minister Paul Martin.

After all, how many stories in the liberal media can you read about how 59% of Canadians want the "angry" (according to the liberal media) Harper dumped as Conservative leader? And that Conservatives are already resigned to losing the next election, but that none has the stomach for trying to replace Harper now. So, enough about him.

Let's turn instead to Martin, who doesn't seem to be getting anywhere near the same attention or grief from the liberal media these days.

You all remember Martin -- the guy the same liberal punditocracy was telling us just a few years ago was the human dynamo who would rescue the Liberals from the scandals of the Jean Chretien era?

So how's he doing? Well, according to the same Strategic Counsel poll this month that the liberal punditocracy seized upon to pound Harper into the ground, most Canadians, uh, want Martin dumped.

Yes, you read that right. A majority of Canadians surveyed -- 52% -- having seen Martin in action as prime minister for the past 20 months, would just as soon see him gone, thank you very much.

Note that at 52% "unpopular" support, Martin is in the same territory as Harper at 59%, except that he's the prime minister which in theory makes his awful numbers even bigger news. At least you'd think.

But seldom if ever deterred by what Canadians actually think, the liberal commentariat, soon after Parliament adjourned for the summer, starting pounding out "think" pieces that, for all his faults and problems, Martin is gradually hitting his stride with such historic achievements as the same sex marriage bill, to say nothing of simply surviving.

So, how did Canadians feel about the just concluded parliamentary session?

Well, asked to name one thing the Martin minority government had accomplished in the same Strategic Counsel poll, most Canadians surveyed -- 60% -- couldn't come up with any. Inspiring, no?

Martin has also so inspired his own party that many within it are already openly speculating about who the next Liberal leader will be, with the Globe touting Michael Ignatieff, a philosopher-king type who works in the States and has never run for elected office, while the Ottawa Citizen Friday said some Liberals are thinking about Bob Rae.

Yes, you heard that right -- Bob Rae, the former Ontario NDP leader whose political career cratered in 1995 after five fun-filled years as premier where, by the end, the province was drowning in a sea of red ink, partially due to the early 1990s recession and partially due to the fact that's what happens when you put the NDP anywhere east of Manitoba in charge of the books.

And while there are not many things that would make us feel sympathetic toward Martin, this is almost one of them.

After all, two years ago, poor Paul was the political Canadian Idol who was going to save the Liberal party from itself and now they're talking about replacing him with some guy from Harvard or BOB FREAKING RAE!!!??? Anyway, that's how Canada's PM has been faring of late while the liberal media pile-drive Harper. Just thought you'd like to know.

eddyk
07-24-2005, 08:13 AM
What is the point of debating a silly editorial from the Toronto Sun?

Paul Martin is the sitting PM. He appears prepared to go into the next elction with a safe lead in the polls.

I swear that Liberal insiders throw out names of potential leadership candidiates just to rattle the cages of the right wing journalists. (I remember back in 1983, there were Liberal organizers talking about drafting Brian Mulroney to replace Pierre Trudeau as Liberal leader)

Bob Rae as leader of the Ferderal Liberals? While his brother, John Rae is a long time Liberal organizer (and Paul Martin advisor) I see no chance of this ever happening. If the Liberal Party of Pierre Trudeau was not progressive enough for him, I do not suspect that today's Liberal Party looks any more promising.

Michael Ignatieff for Liberal leader? He only announced that he wanted to run as a candidate for parliament a few weeks back. They have not even confirmed that they have found a Toronto riding for him to run in.

The only person so far who has said that he would like to run for Liberal leader should Paul Martin make a sudden exit is Ed Manley.

Now the speculation about who will replace Stephen Harper. There is a good debating topic. Bernard Lord? Jean Charest? I cannot wait for the first Conservative leadership french language debate in Alberta.

Kelisis
07-24-2005, 08:17 AM
Now the speculation about who will replace Stephen Harper. There is a good debating topic. Bernard Lord? Jean Charest? I cannot wait for the first Conservative leadership french language debate in Alberta.
Personally, I think Bernard Lord would be a good choice for them. Charest has been a total bust as Quebec Premier.

Just Doug1
07-24-2005, 02:06 PM
What is the point of debating a silly editorial from the Toronto Sun?

What is the point in calling it a silly editorial? Valid points have been raised in it.

debbie
07-24-2005, 02:40 PM
What is the point of debating a silly editorial from the Toronto Sun?None that I'm aware. Pretty much the only time I am exposed to the Toronto Sun is when I visit TCM. None of the other political forums I belong to consider it a serious source of political commentary and it's very seldom quoted. When it is it's usually only for a good chuckle.

Just Doug1
07-24-2005, 03:45 PM
Myopia runs rampant.

eddyk
07-24-2005, 04:43 PM
What is the point in calling it a silly editorial? Valid points have been raised in it.

Give me one...

Just Doug1
07-24-2005, 06:10 PM
Give me one...

"A majority of Canadians surveyed -- 52% -- having seen Martin in action as prime minister for the past 20 months, would just as soon see him gone, thank you very much.

Note that at 52% "unpopular" support, Martin is in the same territory as Harper at 59%, except that he's the prime minister which in theory makes his awful numbers even bigger news."

Tim
07-24-2005, 06:21 PM
'Bigger news"? Perhaps to conservatives and their wildest dreams...
;)

Just Doug1
07-24-2005, 07:37 PM
Your viewpoint seems to be coming across from a position of bias and perspective, and has little to do with the reality of Martins situation as leader, IMO.

Tim
07-24-2005, 07:53 PM
It's not bias. It's just laughing at the whining that the media has played a little too much attention to Harper lately. Martin gets his share at other times, and I'm sure his turn will come soon enough. It's just that the media loved the stupid song and dance with Harper's threats of a government takedown, Stronach's defection (throw a dash of McKay's pathetic hurt potatoe farmer routine for further excitement) and now they are like wild dogs on a wounded beast with key people jumping ship. It takes a bit more than a percentage point to excite the media (unless that ALL there is...) and this author is an idiot if they don't realize that.

eddyk
07-24-2005, 10:44 PM
"A majority of Canadians surveyed -- 52% -- having seen Martin in action as prime minister for the past 20 months, would just as soon see him gone, thank you very much.

Note that at 52% "unpopular" support, Martin is in the same territory as Harper at 59%, except that he's the prime minister which in theory makes his awful numbers even bigger news."

It is a silly popularity poll which makes it useless as any serious point of discussion.

Add to that, groundless rumors of a Bob Rae/Michael Ignatieff contest for Liberal Party leader and you have one serious waste of newsprint.

If there was any serious move to unseat Paul Martin as Liberal leader, the Sun would have it splashed across the front page. But there is none. So much for that debate.

For the record, here is the news story about the poll.>
http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/index.cfm/fuseaction/viewItem/itemID/8133

I will leave it up to the rest of you to decide what use it possibly serves for anyone.

Just Doug1
07-24-2005, 11:22 PM
I remember the poll. Leadership in this country has screw-all to do with ability and is a popularity poll. It was the august P.E.T. who started that trend.

Marshall MacLuhan was right.

debbie
07-24-2005, 11:23 PM
The Toronto Sun punditocracy and commentariat. :rolleyes:
I guess only they would know what that's all about.

The Toronto Sun, the little paper with a limited grasp of the English language so they just make it up as they go along.

Dierdra
07-25-2005, 03:44 AM
We could do worse.

http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/8193/gladashell24uh.gif

Walter
07-25-2005, 05:19 AM
None that I'm aware. Pretty much the only time I am exposed to the Toronto Sun is when I visit TCM. None of the other political forums I belong to consider it a serious source of political commentary and it's very seldom quoted. When it is it's usually only for a good chuckle.

Which forums would they be?

Walter
07-25-2005, 05:27 AM
Excerpts from the editorial....


A majority of Canadians surveyed -- 52% -- having seen Martin in action as prime minister for the past 20 months, would just as soon see him gone, thank you very much.


Well, asked to name one thing the Martin minority government had accomplished in the same Strategic Counsel poll, most Canadians surveyed -- 60% -- couldn't come up with any. Inspiring, no?

The value of polls is questionable at best but that aside would the detractors of The Sun like to address or dispute these two polls or to offer something in Martin's defense.

eddyk
07-25-2005, 07:20 AM
But an opinion poll is just a collection of opinions or a response to a question by a selected group. Hardly worthy of any serious debate and not of much value on it's own.

That being said, now that Jack Layton is our most popular federal leader, what do you think about him becoming the next prime-minister? Debate freely...

Tim
07-25-2005, 07:27 AM
But an opinion poll is just a collection of opinions or a response to a question by a selected group. Hardly worthy of any serious debate and not of much value on it's own.

That being said, now that Jack Layton is our most popular federal leader, what do you think about him becoming the next prime-minister? Debate freely...

lmfao eddyk.

Now I would say *that* is the BIGGEST news...

:D

Tim
07-25-2005, 07:29 AM
Excerpts from the editorial....





The value of polls is questionable at best but that aside would the detractors of The Sun like to address or dispute these two polls or to offer something in Martin's defense.

No. I won't dispute the poll, and given that I despise Martin, I won't offer a so much as a word in in his defense.

Happy?

Just Doug1
07-25-2005, 12:12 PM
The Toronto Sun punditocracy and commentariat. :rolleyes:
I guess only they would know what that's all about.

The Toronto Sun, the little paper with a limited grasp of the English language so they just make it up as they go along.

Moses didn't believe the burning bush at first either. Maybe a better tactic is to address the commentary and not the commentator. Intellectuals and satirists have often found the need to create words to suit a situation. Farknockle for example.

eddyk
07-25-2005, 12:21 PM
Fuddle duddle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuddle_duddle)

debbie
07-25-2005, 12:31 PM
Maybe a better tactic is to address the commentary and not the commentator. ummmm.......I did just that.
hmmmm indeed.