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Athlon_9800
07-26-2005, 04:17 PM
Thanks to the current media frenzy and barrage of lawsuits surrounding violent video games, I can’t tell people what I do for a living without getting a lecture on the current plague of youth violence and the scourge that is Grand Theft Auto. I decided it was time for a rebuttal more effective than shrugging and saying, “Well, I think you’re wrong.” So I sat down to write this article, and started doing some research. What I discovered startled me. I'm not sure I have the ability to write a totally serious piece - it is not in my nature to be serious, nor the nature of GR - but the issues are very serious indeed and the evidence is very real.

I am even going to use charts. With words on 'em. We spare no expense.

First off, I have absolute proof that video games are not the cause of this epidemic of youth violence in America. No, really, I do. Ready?

There is no epidemic of youth violence in America.

The whole concept is a lie manufactured, distributed and perpetuated by the media. Kids are not killing each other more frequently than they used to. In fact, it turns out the opposite is true.

http://gr.bolt.com/articles/violence/doj_chart_1.gifCheck out that ugly graph on the right. It doesn't take a genius to conclude that violent crime is at the lowest it has been in a good thirty years. For effect, I’ve also marked the release of the Playstation console, the first Grand Theft Auto game, the PS2 console, and the infamous GTA 3. Wow, look at those surges in violence!

Believe it or not, I got that graph - and all the others in this piece - directly from the U.S. Department of Justice, Bureau of Statistics (http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/welcome.html). All I added was the video game timeline. This isn’t some privately-funded poll or crazy game journalist defense mechanism - this is the actual, most recent government data on crime as used by the FBI (http://www.fbi.gov/). The fact that they all max out at 2003 is irritating, but this debate has raged much longer than the past few months.

Please understand that I’m not a conspiracy theorist. I don’t think that there are any aliens at Area 51 (http://gr.bolt.com/articles/violence/area_51.jpg). I know that AIDS was not created in a secret government lab, I believe that men really landed on the moon (http://www.ufos-aliens.co.uk/cosmicapollo.html), and I am 100% certain that Sasquatch (http://www.ninjapirate.com/sasquatch-eating-a-kitten.html) shot JFK with the help of the Loch Ness monster. But something clearly isn’t right here. The government and the media just can’t go around making this stuff up, right?

http://gr.bolt.com/articles/violence/doj_chart_2.gifSomething must be missing. That first graph is the overall violent crime rate, and we’re talking about youth violence here. So I found the data sorted by age, and it turns out that through 2002, youth homicide actually dropped across the board, the only increase being among adults. If I may quote directly from the D.O.J. report (http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/welcome.html), “Recently, the offending rates for 14-17 year-olds reached the lowest levels ever recorded.”

The lowest levels ever recorded. In other words, the Playstation era has, in fact, produced the most non-violent kids ever. But I thought video games were training children to kill? I’m sure I read something like that here (http://democrats.assembly.ca.gov/members/a12/oped/op122005002.htm) and here (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0609606131/qid%3D1014681824/sr%3D1-1/ref%3Dsr%5F1%5F1/002-9786485-8596064) and here (http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/techpolicy/2004-07-06-vidgame-panic_x.htm) and here (http://www.21stcenturysciencetech.com/articles/New_violence.html) and here (http://www.enquirer.com/columns/kiese/1999/09/14/jki_violent_video_games.html) and here (http://www.askdrsears.com/html/10/T101200.asp).

To be fair, there have been about 300 studies on the effects of violent media, about 30 of which have been about video games. Most have found little to no connection, although some studies (http://www.childrenssoftware.com/articles/violence.html) found a small, casual correlation between aggressive people and violent media.

Even if true, this does not necessarily mean violent media has created aggressive people. It is more likely that aggressive people are attracted to violent media. Blaming violent media would be like going to the opera, noticing that most people there are rich, and concluding that opera makes people rich. (Classical opera (http://www.metoperafamily.org/metopera/discover/stories/index.aspx), by the way, is chock full of lust, incest, murder, suicide, and revenge.)

In an analysis of the risk factors of youth violence by the Surgeon General of the United States of America (http://www.surgeongeneral.gov/library/youthviolence/toc.html), violent media is categorized as “Small Effect Size.” In fact, there are 27 risk factors rated higher than exposure to violent media, like socioeconomic status, academic failure, poor parent-child relations, weak social ties, and being male. Quick! Ban all the males!

http://gr.bolt.com/articles/violence/doj_chart_3.gifSo is the media and the government flat out lying to us? Yes, and they have been doing so for years. As touched on in the rabble-rousing films of Michael Moore, fear sells. It’s how you turn terrible tragedies like Columbine and the WTC Attack into election votes and must-see TV.

The media in particular loves to bash video games, making sure to point out any time there’s an Xbox within 50 yards of a crime. This is because games are the new competition - every hour you spend interacting with a game is one hour less spent drooling in front of their fear-mongering programming.

And it's working. Sparked by Columbine, mainstream media routinely paints a picture of gamers as odd shut-ins dangerously close to the precipice of violent behavior, and almost unerringly misconstrue the games themselves without taking the time to fact check, as is the case in the very first sentence of this CBS News report (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/07/19/eveningnews/main710117.shtml). Points for killing cops in GTA? Do games still have points?

Gaming is also a new medium, one that has recently become wildly successful. Young people play them and old folks don’t understand, so they must be bad. Don’t forget that in the 1950’s, rock and roll (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0195177495/qid=1121812594/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-8494410-2408156?v=glance&s=books&n=507846) was linked to youth violence in the same way. The hedonistic, tribal rhythms were going to turn America’s youth into a bunch of violent maniacs. Rock and roll was banned and censored (http://gr.bolt.com/articles/violence/rock_n_roll_censorship.txt) all over the country. A bill was even put before Congress in 1955 to ban rock and roll altogether.

Something exactly like what is happening now (http://www.iema.org/government/2005_Legislative_Tracker.pdf). Sorry guys, I don’t care what people (http://www.dannyandthejuniors.com/bio.html) say, rock and roll is here to stay (http://gr.bolt.com/articles/violence/rock_n_roll.mp3).

Let me be perfectly clear: Grand Theft Auto is a best-selling adult game that should not be played by 12 year-olds. That’s why it’s rated “M” and you have to be 17 to buy it. However, most games are not like GTA. In 2004, 54% of games were rated “E” for Everyone, 33% were rated “T” for Teen, and only 12% were rated “M” for Mature. The vast majority of the best-selling titles every year are not rated “M.” Compare that to the 55% of movies rated “R” (http://www.infoplease.com/askeds/4-10-00askeds.html) and only 8% rated “G.” The ESRB might not get it right all the time, but who does? (Sources: the ESRB (http://www.esrb.org/) and the NPD Group (http://www.npd.com/)).

And after all, there’s no problem with R-rated movies or mature rap lyrics or violent video games, because there is no problem with youth violence. The most disgusting thing to me is that some truly horrible high-school tragedies are being exploited by the media, and somehow, I'm part of the problem.

The truth is that these are the most non-violent kids we have ever had, and they all own Playstations. The government is so desperate to find some youth crime to crack down on that they’re strip-searching kids (http://www.zerointelligence.net/archives/000506.php) for 10 bucks while locking up 11 year-old girls for throwing rocks (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/little_girl_assault) and eating french fries (http://www.overcriminalized.com/studies/2004.01_ZT2.html). The most peaceful generation of Americans in recorded history is being shoved through metal detectors, having their civil rights violated on a daily basis, are the victims of unreasonable search and seizure, and are treated with constant suspicion.

All because of a media lie. If nothing else can incite them to violence, maybe that will.


http://gr.bolt.com/articles/violence/violence.htm

bpbpbp
07-26-2005, 08:04 PM
maybe cuz they have something to take out their anger on

Law
07-26-2005, 08:29 PM
I dont know if i can take this article too seriously as its written by someone from Game Evolution, dont even know how old the guy is he could be under 17 for all i know and i know that that age group loves to defend games to the death.

then he goes and says this

And after all, there’s no problem with R-rated movies or mature rap lyrics or violent video games, because there is no problem with youth violence. The most disgusting thing to me is that some truly horrible high-school tragedies are being exploited by the media, and somehow, I'm part of the problem.

The truth is that these are the most non-violent kids we have ever had, and they all own Playstations. The government is so desperate to find some youth crime to crack down on that they’re strip-searching kids for 10 bucks while locking up 11 year-old girls for throwing rocks and eating french fries. The most peaceful generation of Americans in recorded history is being shoved through metal detectors, having their civil rights violated on a daily basis, are the victims of unreasonable search and seizure, and are treated with constant suspicion


Theres no problem with youth violence? really? So why do we even need to YCJA? lets do away with it based on this very intelligent and informed article.........

And the governemnt is desperate to find some youth crime? yeah ok, youth crime is all over the place, maybe its not as bad as the media portrays it to be but there are many occurences of serious youth crime and while personally i dont think its all because of movies and video games , I also think that there are those who definitely are influenced by video games and movies to commit acts of violence.

I really cant take the article too seriously especially with some of the articles he refers to on overcriminalized and zerointelligence. Sure there are some occurences where a youth was charged over somethign stupid but that doesnt mean there is no serious youth crime going on.

All that needs to happen in gaming is to have ratings enforced and have large fines to anyone who sells an M rated or AO rated game to anyone that it isnt intended for and as with smoking , charge those adults that buy them for kids.

Bogie
07-26-2005, 09:07 PM
While the article does quote some impressive statistics, it is flavoured for the gaming industry. To get a true picture of youth violence, and the full demographic and study of same, read the US Surgeon Generals Report (http://www.surgeongeneral.gov/library/youthviolence/) on the subject.

I was with a company, until 2 years ago, that was in the process of creating psychological profiling tools to identify the "propensity for violence in adults and youth". While "fatal" violence has declined, the amount of violence, or a tendency to be violent, has not.

What all this has to do with violent gaming I don't know, but further scientific study into that specific area is required, and is most likely ongoing.

There are many demographics to be considered when doing these studies. Statistics on youth in certain age groups as percentage of population, programs that are in-place to mentor and help youth who have a tendency to be violent or in need of help due to family situations (The U.S. Red Wagon program, for example), state-by-state and city statistics, categorized types of crime and violence, and other stats.

Is youth violence, in reality, "down" or "in-check"?
Scientific studies on the correlation of youth who play these violent games and those who do not?

Picking and choosing what "charts" to show and statistics to quote is an old PR game. Never really lying, but just not giving "Just the facts, ma'am!" - and all the facts.

Lesley
07-26-2005, 10:14 PM
Interesting article. Some of the links made me cringe, especially the one about the girl eating fries.

As for violence in games creating violent children, I don't believe it for a second. If someone has no predisposition to being violent then there's no way that playing a shootem killem game is going to turn him/her into a monster. To focus on one aspect only of a person's life is short sighted. It's easy to say that the violent crimes perpetrated by youth since video games arrived is soley due to the games but that's nonsense. You have to look at the whole person, their family life, education, life experiences, peers etc. A good kid from a home where his family loves and respects him, where the parent (parents) is aware of what is going on in his life and is attentive to his needs is about as likely to go to school with the intent to kill his classmates as I am to sprout wings and fly.

JMO

frostyone
07-26-2005, 10:29 PM
The same industry that claims this movie, game, or TV show has no effect on behaviour will charge millions for a 30 second commercial spot.
You can be certain they don't tell their advertisers that this 30 second clip will have no effect on the audience.
Bet they have an entire mess of different studies, to show advertisers exactly how 30 seconds of video WILL influence behaviour.

chief
07-26-2005, 10:38 PM
Blame the parents who buy the kids these M rated games and who don't watch over what they're playing.

Athlon_9800
07-27-2005, 08:49 AM
I agree with most of you, but I never said the article was unbiased or totally true, I just said it was a good read. By that I meant that the author presented his case and backed it up (somewhat). You cannot assume his facts are actual facts, but you can't assume they're not, either. No one actually knows the truth, but I think Lesley and the chew said it pretty well: it comes down to the parents and the environment the children are brought up in. Multiple things affect a person negatively or positively; banning video games wouldn't solve any problems.

Exmortis
07-27-2005, 09:06 AM
Some of the links made me cringe, especially the one about the girl eating fries.

No other than John Roberts is responsible for upholding the charges and humiliating that poor girl. And he is now the new chief of justice as recently appointed by Bush. :rrg:

Athlon_9800
07-27-2005, 09:13 AM
Yeah, these are pretty disgusting...


A 12-year-old with hyperactivity disorder told students ahead of him in the lunch line to leave some potatoes, or “I’m going to get you.” The principal called the police and the Louisiana boy was arrested for making a terrorist threat. He spent two weeks in jail awaiting a hearing.

In Arlington, Virginia, two 10-year-old boys put soapy water in their teacher’s drink. The teacher insisted that the young boys be charged with felonies, although their case was later dismissed.

An 11-year-old girl was arrested after asking her teacher for permission to use a smooth-edged steak knife that she had brought from home to cut a piece of chicken that she was eating for lunch.

A disabled 14-year-old was charged as an adult with strong-armed robbery and jailed for six weeks. The boy, who had no criminal record, was accused of taking $2 from a classmate. After 60 Minutes II showed an interest in the case, all charges were dropped.

Bogie
07-27-2005, 10:50 AM
I agree with most of you, but I never said the article was unbiased or totally true, I just said it was a good read. By that I meant that the author presented his case and backed it up (somewhat). You cannot assume his facts are actual facts, but you can't assume they're not, either. No one actually knows the truth, but I think Lesley and the chew said it pretty well: it comes down to the parents and the environment the children are brought up in. Multiple things affect a person negatively or positively; banning video games wouldn't solve any problems.
Yes, and you have created a thread for a great dialogue. Thank you! Love to take part in a discussion on certain issues.

I cannot agree with your above statement that banning video games (I presume you mean "violent" ones) wouldn't solve any problems. There is no real proof either way. Personally I do not see any purpose in such violent "games". Our society seems to dwell and feed on violence. A Newscast that does not carry scenes of death and destruction is considered to be "a slow news day". Sad comment on society. I firmly believe that such games contribute to present-day desensitization.

Athlon_9800
07-28-2005, 05:26 AM
Yes, and you have created a thread for a great dialogue. Thank you! Love to take part in a discussion on certain issues.

I cannot agree with your above statement that banning video games (I presume you mean "violent" ones) wouldn't solve any problems. There is no real proof either way. Personally I do not see any purpose in such violent "games". Our society seems to dwell and feed on violence. A Newscast that does not carry scenes of death and destruction is considered to be "a slow news day". Sad comment on society. I firmly believe that such games contribute to present-day desensitization.

The simple fact that you don't even play the games yourself means you can't really judge in my opinion. I mean, have you ever even seen some of these games you are accusing of being violent in action?

Video games provide entertainment, that's it. Do you not watch violent movies? What's so different? I can't quite understand... not to mention: movies have real people in these situations. GTA has poorly rendered violence, violence that you cannot compare to the real thing. I know that the game doesn't gross me out, but seeing those actions take place in real life WOULD. I am not disensitized to such things just because I enjoy the action and immersion of a video game.

Oh, and FYI, I don't really enjoy the GTA series any longer, it's grown old.

Here are a couple more... articles...
This guy doesn't seem to grasp exactly what a modification is and that users put them in place themselves:
http://www.siliconvalley.com/mld/siliconvalley/12233512.htm

And another, can you justify this? The woman sues after buying her grandson a MATURE rated video game... after they changed it to adult only?
http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/fun.games/07/27/game.lawsuit.ap/index.html

I think people need to get their acts together and quit using games as scapegoats. How about not having guns at their children's disposal? Or how about trying, oh, I dunno... good parenting? The most harm a video game can do to someone is maybe lack of sleep... I can attest to that ;)

Athlon_9800
07-28-2005, 05:29 AM
Oh, and one more thing: Bogie, do you actually think banning a form of entertainment is the right thing to do?

Law
07-28-2005, 02:16 PM
I agree that movies are far more violent because real people are shown getting shot, stabbed, or murdered in many different ways while a game like GTA has some really bad graphics and looks like lego guys getting killed.

BUT with games the player is immersed in them for hours and hours and get to control the character and decide what brutal or illegal acts to commit and not just watch it happen on a screen.

I personally dont think games are much more than a miniscule factor to our society's violence but i do feel that there are a few people who do get influenced by violent games and maybe get curious about guns and what it woudl be like to shoot someone but i do feel its a parent's responsibility to know and regulate what their kid is playing.

The issue with the grandmother buying the kid an M rated game just shows that parents or guardians dont seem to care what kind of content is in these games that their kids are playing. Thats just irresponsible. THere is also another issue here though that i wont get into too deeply

why is it alright for her grandkid in her eyes to play a game where he commits theft, murder (mass murder if he wants) and other criminals acts but then find out there is simulated sex of these lego looking characters , and thats when she has a problem with the game.

Blow someones brain out ? sure. But did that female character show a tit? sue the comapny!

Rant over

chief
07-28-2005, 02:22 PM
I agree that movies are far more violent because real people are shown getting shot, stabbed, or murdered in many different ways while a game like GTA has some really bad graphics and looks like lego guys getting killed.

BUT with games the player is immersed in them for hours and hours and get to control the character and decide what brutal or illegal acts to commit and not just watch it happen on a screen.

I personally dont think games are much more than a miniscule factor to our society's violence but i do feel that there are a few people who do get influenced by violent games and maybe get curious about guns and what it woudl be like to shoot someone but i do feel its a parent's responsibility to know and regulate what their kid is playing.

The issue with the grandmother buying the kid an M rated game just shows that parents or guardians dont seem to care what kind of content is in these games that their kids are playing. Thats just irresponsible. THere is also another issue here though that i wont get into too deeply

why is it alright for her grandkid in her eyes to play a game where he commits theft, murder (mass murder if he wants) and other criminals acts but then find out there is simulated sex of these lego looking characters , and thats when she has a problem with the game.

Blow someones brain out ? sure. But did that female character show a tit? sue the comapny!

Rant over

I agree, theres a rating system in place for games just like movies, and they should be followed by EVERYONE. Those who purchase the games, and those who sell the games.

Bogie
07-28-2005, 02:29 PM
Rating systems are also a great indicator for anybody that wants to find violence in games/movies.

Unfortunately parents/guardians are not as involved as they should be. Our fast-paced society means that little contact, or attention, is given to youth. Too many are "latch-key" kids.

As long as people buy it, it will be produced. Called "supply and demand".

Athlon_9800
07-28-2005, 11:09 PM
I agree that movies are far more violent because real people are shown getting shot, stabbed, or murdered in many different ways while a game like GTA has some really bad graphics and looks like lego guys getting killed.

BUT with games the player is immersed in them for hours and hours and get to control the character and decide what brutal or illegal acts to commit and not just watch it happen on a screen.

I personally dont think games are much more than a miniscule factor to our society's violence but i do feel that there are a few people who do get influenced by violent games and maybe get curious about guns and what it woudl be like to shoot someone but i do feel its a parent's responsibility to know and regulate what their kid is playing.

The issue with the grandmother buying the kid an M rated game just shows that parents or guardians dont seem to care what kind of content is in these games that their kids are playing. Thats just irresponsible. THere is also another issue here though that i wont get into too deeply

why is it alright for her grandkid in her eyes to play a game where he commits theft, murder (mass murder if he wants) and other criminals acts but then find out there is simulated sex of these lego looking characters , and thats when she has a problem with the game.

Blow someones brain out ? sure. But did that female character show a tit? sue the comapny!

Rant over

I do agree that there could be people influenced, yes, but should those kind of people really be playing the games to begin with? Your average Joe isn't going to go commit murder from a video game, but someone with a few screw loose perhaps would. That is where this gets deeper... See?

Jaica
07-28-2005, 11:25 PM
I do not believe it is the games that are creating the problem, is that the fact that parents are turning a blind eye to the issue that are unfolding before their kids on the screen. What I mean by this is that I have witnessed a woman and her child going into a gaming store to by GTA San Andreas to quote the kid “ by this game or I will have someone else buy it for me.” The mother bought the game knowing the game was made for adults and was informed by the clerk as to how violent the game is. This is a clear message that some parents are willing get the products for their children in hopes to silence them. It is parents like this that see money in their eyes when the news promotes violence in games.
Parents should take the time to look at the game before buying and monitor it.

Law
07-28-2005, 11:53 PM
I do agree that there could be people influenced, yes, but should those kind of people really be playing the games to begin with? Your average Joe isn't going to go commit murder from a video game, but someone with a few screw loose perhaps would. That is where this gets deeper... See?

Well yes, and thats why the ratings should be enforced by store employees and parents. That is a tough subject as well because what if you are a parent and know your teenager 17, 16 and maybe 15 years old is mature enough for some content such as Halo2 , which is rated M for blood, gore and violence? The thing is though that many kids you find on LIVE are the most immature brats and obviously cant handle anything mature.

Athlon_9800
07-29-2005, 12:23 AM
Well yes, and thats why the ratings should be enforced by store employees and parents. That is a tough subject as well because what if you are a parent and know your teenager 17, 16 and maybe 15 years old is mature enough for some content such as Halo2 , which is rated M for blood, gore and violence? The thing is though that many kids you find on LIVE are the most immature brats and obviously cant handle anything mature.

The only thing that can be done without harming the abundance of gamers is to just better enforce the ESRB ratings, nothing more CAN be done. It wouldn't be fair to censor games, it just wouldn't.

Law
07-29-2005, 12:38 AM
The only thing that can be done without harming the abundance of gamers is to just better enforce the ESRB ratings, nothing more CAN be done. It wouldn't be fair to censor games, it just wouldn't.

youre right about that. As for whether it makes people violent i dont think it does, there has been no proof that it does. First they argued that rock and roll made people worship the devil, dancing would lead to impure thoughts, books would give women ideas...........theres always something

Jaica
07-29-2005, 01:02 AM
I think it is the parents who buy it for children under 13 that makes it bad for the ones who are responsible to understand the difference between real and fake. When a clerk try’s to enforce the ratings code then the manger steps in and thinks of the store numbers and says “ It is ok Ms you can buy this game” it seems to me that money drives the issue.

Athlon_9800
07-29-2005, 01:06 AM
I think it is the parents who buy it for children under 13 that makes it bad for the ones who are responsible to understand the difference between real and fake. When a clerk try’s to enforce the ratings code then the manger steps in and thinks of the store numbers and says “ It is ok Ms you can buy this game” it seems to me that money drives the issue.

Not necessarily... the store cannot refuse to sell the game if the parent is there trying to buy it. Even though the clerk KNOWS it's for the child the parent is with, they really can't refuse the sale. You're idea is flawed, although, yes, money is an issue when it comes to... well.. anything.

Also, I don't think many of the clerks in stores even give a crap and just choose not to harass people about the ratings. It's likely a lot "easier" on them that way.