View Full Version : Air France? crash at pearson
54spliff
08-02-2005, 04:31 PM
401 just east of Dixie Rd.
http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/traveller/compass/camera/camhome.htm
watchign it now , i have to drive over to dixie in 30 minutes
SuperFriend_XP
08-02-2005, 04:34 PM
You're Joking! All that flash rain just now - and I work opposite the airport :|
SuperFriend_XP
08-02-2005, 04:37 PM
aw man that sucks
Mr. Apollo
08-02-2005, 04:38 PM
I was watching it on CBC Newsworld and CTV NewsNET. CNN just broke in with the story about 30 seconds ago.
They said planes were being allowed to land but not take off becuase of the storm. A CBC reporter on site said he saw huge fingers of lightning across the sky and then a puff of smoke at the end of the runway. The plane crashed through the barriers and landed in a revine.
CNN is saying "Air planes runs off runway and bursts into flames at Toronto Airport, Canada. (:rolleyes: ). Details soon.)
Digiital
08-02-2005, 04:39 PM
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1123014388624_118423588/?hub=TopStories
Mr. Apollo
08-02-2005, 04:42 PM
Holy crap! My sister just called, she works near the airport, and said about 15 minutes ago an airplane flew overhead with black smoke pouring from it!
She said what was odd was that the plane was flying really low and was flying "the wrong way". That is it was flying in for a landing on a route that is only for take offs.
SuperFriend_XP
08-02-2005, 04:48 PM
So it was an incoming Lufthansa 737? Incoming from where though?
dusty550
08-02-2005, 04:52 PM
Now they said they belive it was Air France, i checked up a flight comming from paris that landed today, at about 4:02 PM. If this is right then the flight number is AFR358, found at http://www.flytecomm.com/cgi-bin/trackflight
Update: Peel police says it was an Air France Airplane
Dr.Dan
08-02-2005, 04:53 PM
It's an Air France A340 Air Bus
The Lufthansa 737 landed just before it safely
CP24 was talking to an airport employee, and that's what he was saying.
Mr. Apollo
08-02-2005, 04:55 PM
It was an Air France A340 Paris to Toronto flight.
dusty550
08-02-2005, 04:55 PM
So then my guess on the flight number was correct?
Update: The smoke is turning white... which is a good sign that the fire is going out?
Mr. Apollo
08-02-2005, 05:00 PM
It was flight Air France 358 for anyone who is wondering.
Dr.Dan
08-02-2005, 05:06 PM
Another explosion... tonnes of black smoke again
Some passanger may have had a chance to get off.... :gsd:
dusty550
08-02-2005, 05:10 PM
Yea i just saw, i guess the flames hit some more fuel... I hope people got off especially the pilots got off so that they can tell more of what happened.
Update: They know more on what happened, someone called in CP24 because they were on the phone with someone on the phone while it happened. So I guess their are survivors, And the fire futher in the back (from 1st class).
Lee Anne
08-02-2005, 05:17 PM
Global says the plane could hold 350 people, there were/are 291 onboard .. pilot and co-pilot are alive and they have gotten many people off the plane
:(
Dr.Dan
08-02-2005, 05:21 PM
From a passanger, she thinks most got off the plane... many were seriously injured from a 'rough landing'
smirnoff
08-02-2005, 05:27 PM
you have to love the idiots who stop and watch and ignore the fact there blocking traffic.
sickcars
08-02-2005, 05:31 PM
you have to love the idiots who stop and watch and ignore the fact there blocking traffic.
LOL ya I just saw it on the news here in Europe and thats the sam thing I said lol.
Hope everybody gets off the plane alive.
dawtcalm
08-02-2005, 05:33 PM
LIVE IMAGE:
http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/traveller/compass/camera/pictures/loc37.jpg
smirnoff
08-02-2005, 05:35 PM
looks like no one may have died.
dawtcalm
08-02-2005, 05:35 PM
earlier:
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a134/dawtcalm/earlier.jpg
dusty550
08-02-2005, 06:16 PM
I belive they just said that everyone made it off the plane alive, REALLY good news
Dr.Dan
08-02-2005, 06:16 PM
From an Air France official; No fatalities
chief
08-02-2005, 06:20 PM
Everyone on board is reported as alive, there are 14 minor injuries. Thank god!
Digiital
08-02-2005, 07:07 PM
Drove by on my way home and the smell was just out of this world. Smelled like burning tires. The whole airport was "fogged in" I couldn't see any of the terminals and the traffic, well thats another story. Normally takes me about 1 hr, took my a little over 2 hrs to get home.
All flights into Toronto have been cancelled and I heard that morning flights have also been cancelled.
Saw a sign on the DVP heading northbound tonight that said "401 Westbound Closed Tonight - 11.00 PM". That's all it said so I would assume that all lanes will be closed down. The sign didn't say where it would be closed from :rrg:
masher
08-02-2005, 10:50 PM
Saw a sign on the DVP heading northbound tonight that said "401 Westbound Closed Tonight - 11.00 PM". That's all it said so I would assume that all lanes will be closed down. The sign didn't say where it would be closed from :rrg:
might be something to do with this
http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/traveller/compass/camera/pictures/tris/toronto.htm
dumbo
08-02-2005, 11:01 PM
www.pulse24.com (http://www.pulse24.com) has some info on it.
Walter
08-03-2005, 06:30 AM
A great example of a couple of things......
*the professionalism and training of the aircraft crew. They got all passengers and staff off with only minor injuries.
* the tendency to speculate and make comments without any substantiation. My wife came running into the living room at about 4:20 PM all excited about the crash and telling me that no one survived and she got quite upset that I didn't show more concern. I turned on a local news station and they were all showing the same picture and while they were speculating up to a point they made it clear they didn't have confirmation. By about 5:15 PM they had confirmation that all passengers and crew got off before the fire and EMS were reporting only minor injuries. By 5:30 it was a non-event and it was off to work.
Digiital
08-03-2005, 08:35 AM
Drive in wasn't as bad as I expected, of course alot of people slowing down to have a look, but (atleast from the eastbound) you can't really see anything except a small chunk of the wingtip. Still showering it with water and you can see a few tv crew trucks. But thats about it.
But boy, the smell last night was STRONG.
Take a look at the first picture in the photo gallery of the crash HERE (http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Render&c=Page&cid=968332188492) . I assume it was taken by one of the pasengers. I don't see a chute at that door?
Ted
Digiital
08-03-2005, 04:15 PM
You KNOW this was going to happen. For <@#$#$#@> sakes. The ravine was there before the airport. How many years has the airport been in operation and this is the second time a aircraft has gone into the ravine. As stated before, had it not gone into the ravine it could have gone right into the 401, at rush hour.
Maybe they should fill in the Potomac River when the Boeing 737 went in back in 1982. (http://www.answers.com/topic/air-florida-flight-90)
Some eye witnesses reported that the aircraft overshot the runway which gave it less time to stop. I guess there are many questions to be answer and time will tell as to the real cause.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4742669.stm
Rescue plans stand Toronto test
By Adam Blenford
BBC News
The sight of a commercial airliner burning in a shallow ravine at the end of Toronto's main international runway has re-opened a debate about safety at Canada's busiest airport.
In June 1978, an Air Canada DC-9 leaving the airport had barely left the ground when the pilot aborted take-off.
Moments later the plane had crashed into Etobicoke Creek, a 15-metre deep ravine running across the end of the runway, parallel to a busy highway.
Two people died and 105 were injured, prompting calls for the creek to be filled or a bridge built to ensure nothing like it ever happened again.
Pleading poverty, Transport Canada said the cost was too high.
'First-rate rescue'
But the latest accident - in which all 309 on board survived - came after a violent thunderstorm lashed Toronto, forcing the airport onto "red alert" status.
How and why Air France flight 358 was given permission to land is certain to be at the heart of the Canadian investigation.
Chris Yates, a transport analyst for Jane's Information Group, said the 100% survival rate was a reflection on a "first-rate" emergency operation in Toronto.
"Fire services in Toronto were on the scene within one or two minutes. I can't fault their reaction," Mr Yates told the BBC News website.
Evacuation procedures are similar to those in 1978, but other changes have improved the chances of survival in a runway incident.
RECENT RUNWAY CRASHES
10/04: 13 die in Missouri, US
12/03: Boeing 727 crashes in Benin, killing 135
3/03: Algerian Boeing crashes, 102 killed
11/01: American Airlines Airbus crashes in New York, killing 260
7/01: Air France Concorde crashes in Paris, killing 113
4/01: Air Philippines Boeing 737 kills 131
Air travel regulations across North America and Europe have been gradually tightened in an effort to reduce the risks to passengers caught up in accidents.
Chief among these in the so-called "golden rule": every passenger on board a commercial airliner must be able to clamber off the plane within 90 seconds of an incident, even if half the doors are blocked.
The time limit was lowered during the 1980s and flight crews were put through more intensive training designed to help them cope with extreme circumstances.
Emergency lighting is now standard along cabin floors and ceilings, while seats and other furnishings are made from fire-retardant materials.
In Toronto, fire and rescue crews are under orders to reach the scene of an accident and start their work in under three minutes.
Their effectiveness and response times are regularly tested in formal tests, codified in Canada's civil aviation regulations.
Creek defended
Despite the success of the rescue effort, some Canadian critics quickly suggested that the incident could have been avoided entirely if the ravine had been filled or the runway extended.
Captain Bob Perkins, a pilot and union official with Canada's Air Line Pilots' Association, told the country's National Post newspaper that his organisation had pushed hard for an extension for many years.
Another pilot told said that international aviation charts do not mark the creek as a potential hazard at Toronto. Many flight crews would not know the dangers lurking at the end of the runway, he added.
A spokesman for Transport Canada denied that the runway needed extending, a view backed by Mr Yates.
"If the plane hadn't been stopped it could well have run across the road, causing a much larger disaster," he told the BBC News website.
Question marks remain, though, over whether Air France Flight 358 should have been allowed to land in weather conditions described by residents as "fierce" and "scary".
"That's the $64,000 question," Chris Yates said.
"The investigation is going to come down to an argument over whether this was air crew making a bad call or advice from air traffic control."
Andromeda
08-03-2005, 04:30 PM
posted by the chew
Everyone on board is reported as alive, there are 14 minor injuries. Thank god!
That's exactly how I feel! Watching it on TV it looked like nobody would be alive. Whether it was the crew, the emergency guys, or a miracle I'm just glad those people are alive.
jovin
08-03-2005, 05:00 PM
Take a look at the first picture in the photo gallery of the crash HERE (http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Render&c=Page&cid=968332188492) . I assume it was taken by one of the pasengers. I don't see a chute at that door?
Ted
I saw that picture in the Star this morning. Is that some type of bag/case the guy in the white shirt in the foreground is carrying in his left hand? If so, he should be charged with endangering public life.
MSE OP
08-03-2005, 08:13 PM
on a side note, that plane has been in the air half its existance, that probably is normal for major aircraft though (28,418 hours out of 6 years)
They've recovered both "black boxes" and I think it will be interesting to hear the conversations between the pilot and the control tower, assuming they will be made public at some point.
I saw that picture in the Star this morning. Is that some type of bag/case the guy in the white shirt in the foreground is carrying in his left hand? If so, he should be charged with endangering public life.
well if u talk to anyone in a crisis situation, people who are in shock and don't realize what they are doing. Its as if your house is buring to the ground.... first reaction would be to go and and retrive some of their belongings. is it stupid to do?? yes, yet we do it. As i'm sure as in this case...people do funny things under stressfull times. hence the guy with his bag....prob did it without even realizing he did it...
And as for the comments of the plane staff not doing thier jobs of evacuating the people.....I can tell u this....if i am on a plane with fire all around me, and someone telling me to go in a orderly fashion to get out, when i know my life is in danger, i harldy would think i would be listening.....it human nature to run when we are in the presence of danger....its instinct. So i don't blame anyone for wanting to get out as fast as they can in this situation. i'm not saying it is right or wrong, but the reality of it is people just wanted to get the heck out of their and if that meant crawling over the seats to get out then so be it.....
jovin
08-03-2005, 08:33 PM
Here's part of my home conversation on this event.
My wife: Thank God all passengers got out safely.
Me: I would only thank God if He prevented this crash from happening in the first place, especially since weather would seem to be a major factor and it's considered to be an "act of God", at least by the insurance companies.
Moral: Most of the time we repeat old sayings or cliches without really thinking about their true meaning.
jovin
08-03-2005, 08:42 PM
well if u talk to anyone in a crisis situation, people who are in shock and don't realize what they are doing. Its as if your house is buring to the ground.... first reaction would be to go and and retrive some of their belongings. is it stupid to do?? yes, yet we do it. As i'm sure as in this case...people do funny things under stressfull times. hence the guy with his bag....prob did it without even realizing he did it...
And as for the comments of the plane staff not doing thier jobs of evacuating the people.....I can tell u this....if i am on a plane with fire all around me, and someone telling me to go in a orderly fashion to get out, when i know my life is in danger, i harldy would think i would be listening.....it human nature to run when we are in the presence of danger....its instinct. So i don't blame anyone for wanting to get out as fast as they can in this situation. i'm not saying it is right or wrong, but the reality of it is people just wanted to get the heck out of their and if that meant crawling over the seats to get out then so be it.....
I understand what you're saying, it's human nature under normal circumstances to try and salvage our possessions. But in an emergency situation where 300 air passengers need to be evacuated in 90 seconds from a burning aircraft with smoke billowing from the back, do you really want to reach for your precious belongings (which probably only consist of business documents)? Would you not run for your life? A delay of 2 or 3 seconds because of this could easily reasult in the death of 10 people. No brains; no excuse.
I understand what you're saying, it's human nature under normal circumstances to try and salvage our possessions. But in an emergency situation where 300 air passengers need to be evacuated in 90 seconds from a burning aircraft with smoke billowing from the back, do you really want to reach for your precious belongings (which probably only consist of business documents)? Would you not run for your life? A delay of 2 or 3 seconds because of this could easily reasult in the death of 10 people. No brains; no excuse.
You're playing "Monday Morning Quarterback" jovin. Yaba is correct. No one can fault any of the passengers here. They acted on pure instinct, and we would all act differently in the same circumstances. Human reaction and instinctive behaviour to split-second crisis decisions are not universal.
Walter
08-04-2005, 04:39 AM
A lot of Monday morning quarterbacking going on......
I believe 291 passengers and 12 crew members successfully evacuated with only a very few minor injuries says it all about the crew.They did their job and it would appear that the on-site emergency teams from the airport and surrounding areas did their job.
To me the cause of the crash is secondary..............
jovin
08-04-2005, 05:31 PM
You're playing "Monday Morning Quarterback" jovin. Yaba is correct. No one can fault any of the passengers here. They acted on pure instinct, and we would all act differently in the same circumstances. Human reaction and instinctive behaviour to split-second crisis decisions are not universal.
I don't think so. I believe under the circumstances, with smoke billowing out from the rear of the aircraft, the passengers were advised by the flight addendants to evacuate the aircraft as quickly as possible and leave all their possessions behind. It's standard operating procedure in aviation emergencies. But there are always those that think their "possessions" are more valuable than someone's else life.
54spliff
08-04-2005, 06:06 PM
I don't think so. I believe under the circumstances, with smoke billowing out from the rear of the aircraft, the passengers were advised by the flight addendants to evacuate the aircraft as quickly as possible and leave all their possessions behind. It's standard operating procedure in aviation emergencies. But there are always those that think their "possessions" are more valuable than someone's else life.
Sometimes presence of mind overshadows presence of ones butt.
Dr.Dan
08-04-2005, 06:26 PM
Is there any chance that is one of the co-pilots carrying a flight bag?
If I was one of the last off the plane, and I didn't see an immediate danger, I might take the 3 seconds to grab an overhead bag...
But by no means would I ever stand in the way of others trying to get out of there.
You never know what can go through your head in a situation like that until it happens to you... we can only guess.
jovin
08-04-2005, 10:42 PM
Is there any chance that is one of the co-pilots carrying a flight bag?
If I was one of the last off the plane, and I didn't see an immediate danger, I might take the 3 seconds to grab an overhead bag...
But by no means would I ever stand in the way of others trying to get out of there.
You never know what can go through your head in a situation like that until it happens to you... we can only guess.
Clearly, the guy in the photo was not the last one off the plane and even if it was a co-pilot carrying a flight bag, so what? What could possibly be in that bag that would be so important?
sharpnfuzzy
08-04-2005, 10:42 PM
http://www.airliners.net/search/photo.search?regsearch=F-GLZQ&distinct_entry=true
I don't think so. I believe under the circumstances, with smoke billowing out from the rear of the aircraft, the passengers were advised by the flight addendants to evacuate the aircraft as quickly as possible and leave all their possessions behind.
Yes, but does everyone listen to the instructions of flight attendants ??. You're still forgetting that in situations like that, most people operate on pure instinct to survive, as opposed to rational thought.
It's easy for all of us here, sitting in front of a computer, relaxed etc. to say "I would do this" or "I would do that" but no one can guarantee 100% that that is exactly how they would act if they were faced with something like this. Human nature in crisis / survival mode is not predictable to the extent that you portray.
What could possibly be in that bag that would be so important?
His divorce decree....or his prenup agreement? :d
debbie
08-04-2005, 10:51 PM
International travelers would have all their papers with them. That guy in the picture looks to be carrying a briefcase or something which is no different than a handbag.
jovin
08-04-2005, 10:58 PM
Yes, but does everyone listen to the instructions of flight attendants ??. You're still forgetting that in situations like that, most people operate on pure instinct to survive, as opposed to rational thought.
It's easy for all of us here, sitting in front of a computer, relaxed etc. to say "I would do this" or "I would do that" but no one can guarantee 100% that that is exactly how they would act if they were faced with something like this. Human nature in crisis / survival mode is not predictable to the extent that you portray.
Nonsense. If the plane you're flying in is burning up and you don't want to follow instructions, you should be liable for your reckless actions.
Nonsense. If the plane you're flying in is burning up and you don't want to follow instructions, you should be liable for your reckless actions.
You're still not getting it. Of course you would either live and die by your actions jovin. Personally, I'm not going to sit there, in a burning aircraft, just to listen to someone's instructions and waste precious minutes. I will look for the first way out.
sharpnfuzzy
08-04-2005, 11:33 PM
Nonsense. If the plane you're flying in is burning up and you don't want to follow instructions, you should be liable for your reckless actions.
Unless you were on that plane on Tuesday, all your opinions on the matter have no credibilty and you won't convince anyone with your arguments.
My wife: Thank God all passengers got out safely.
Me: I would only thank God if He prevented this crash from happening in the first place.
If the crash did not happen and it was a normal landing and it wasnt on the news would you still know to thank god?
Nonsense. If the plane you're flying in is burning up and you don't want to follow instructions, you should be liable for your reckless actions.
This is what i love to see, people who think they know exactly how they would act in a life or death situation.
Unfortunately in those situations you dont have time to stop and think about consequences of every little action you take, you act on instinct and im sure its not that people did not want to follow instructions, its that their instinct superceeded the instructions, most of which they didnt hear.
Walter
08-05-2005, 04:24 AM
Non-event? Now we know where your humanitarian priorities lie Jack! Later on you further attest cause doesn't concern you, "is secondary" in fact. It doesn't affect me mentality.. Problem is one day you may find yourself concerned and wanting answers due to a great personal loss. Would you be so blase or downright callous in such circumstances?
NO! The operative word is "personal" and the level of concern would depend on how close the victims were to me......family, friends, co-workers, neighbors, etc. and it simply a matter of showing support and concern.
I get the feeling that you plan your days around media funerals.......God Bless You for caring.
54spliff
08-05-2005, 06:57 PM
NO! The operative word is "personal" and the level of concern would depend on how close the victims were to me......family, friends, co-workers, neighbors, etc. and it simply a matter of showing support and concern.
I get the feeling that you plan your days around media funerals.......God Bless You for caring.
Level of concern? What about compassion?
http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=air+india+bombing+fifth+engine&meta=
I was present and watched some of the above procedure then my shift ended. Next morning I heard the news. So yes if the operative word is "personal" then I took this personal.
Lesster
08-05-2005, 07:51 PM
Just a thought ... what if the guy was in the aisle seat and had his (let's call it a ..) briefcase on his lap. After all, they'd already clapped for a safe landing. Then the crash happenned and his instincts, as well as the crew, told him to run. Should he leave the briefcase in the way of others ... to trip over ... perhaps? He probably was not aware of his grasp on it until he couldn't drop it without ... creating a hazard for others. It's possible. I keep my handbag close by me when flying....
jovin
08-05-2005, 09:57 PM
Just a thought ... what if the guy was in the aisle seat and had his (let's call it a ..) briefcase on his lap. After all, they'd already clapped for a safe landing. Then the crash happenned and his instincts, as well as the crew, told him to run. Should he leave the briefcase in the way of others ... to trip over ... perhaps? He probably was not aware of his grasp on it until he couldn't drop it without ... creating a hazard for others. It's possible. I keep my handbag close by me when flying....
Until aircraft is at gate when plane has landed, all baggage and briefcases must be in overhead bin or under seat.
Until aircraft is at gate when plane has landed, all baggage and briefcases must be in overhead bin or under seat.
Ok then , so it was under his seat and he quickly grabbed it as he stood up. No harm done.
54spliff
08-07-2005, 01:19 AM
Wasn't normal wheel stop for those onboard.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20050804/PLANEPSYCHO04/TPNational/Canada
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