View Full Version : How about a little piracy before that computer class?
Bogie
08-09-2005, 09:18 AM
How about a little piracy before that computer class? (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20050809/RSOFTWARE09/TPBusiness/Canadian)
Half of students copy software, survey says
Globe and Mail By CAROLINE ALPHONSO Tuesday, August 9, 2005
Half of Canadian university and college students are pirating music, movies and computer programs, a new study shows -- a finding that disturbs software makers who are alarmed by the prevalence of counterfeiters on campuses nationwide.
What's worse, the study by the Canadian Alliance Against Software Theft found that almost two-thirds of computer science students, who are preparing for careers in programming and software development, pirate software, compared with 46 per cent of students in other fields of study.
[full story (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20050809/RSOFTWARE09/TPBusiness/Canadian)] May require free registration to view
whoa. Stop the presses. The computer programmers know how to pirate software more than others?
Whoa.
:D
Bogie
08-09-2005, 10:38 AM
whoa. Stop the presses. The computer programmers know how to pirate software more than others?d
Whoa.
:d
Yeh, I know ... found the story a little amusing myself. An excellent case of using demographics/statistics to sensationalize a story. It is liking it to "those who know how to drive, steal more cars than those who don't".
gotta love newspapers.
;)
Digiital
08-09-2005, 11:19 AM
No the best part is that pirated software is buggy. It's not betas! Most cases they are 1-to-1 copies of the retail CD.
Hummmmm.....Well maybe they have something.
Pirated copies of Windows XP = Buggy.! Yup, they are right..... :)
Pirated copies of Windows XP = Buggy.! Yup, they are right.....
All copies of Windows XP = Buggy. ;)
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I don't understand how anyone would find this surprising or disturbing - students are broke. What the hell do you expect?! :rolleyes:
Charging over $500 for ms office is a much greater crime than copying some software. (provided that the pirated software isn't used to make a living)
Digiital
08-09-2005, 06:14 PM
If ALL copies are buggy then that means EVERYONE running Windows is using a pirated copy of the software, oh my. I'm in SHOCK I say, just SHOCKED, how could this have happened.
For Robert, illegally downloading music and movies is a popular pastime in his circle of university friends. But the computer science student has upped the ante of his piracy.
With his high-speed Internet connection and computer tools, the Queen's University student has downloaded thousands of dollars worth of commercial software from Adobe Photoshop to the latest Doom 3 video game.
"I recognize that it's stealing. But it tends to be stuff that is really out of my reach price-wise," he said.
I wonder if he would justify stealing a Porsche using that same rationale. :p
Bogie
08-09-2005, 06:35 PM
I wonder if he would justify stealing a Porsche using that same rationale. :p This is the point of discussion about software piracy. Can't afford MS Office? Then get 602 Suite or StarOffice, or similar. The "price" argument just doesn't hold water. Graphics suites - well, there are others instead of PhotoShop or whatever.
OEM Windows OS is relatively inexpensive.
I want a better computer, but I won't steal it to get it. I also want a better car, but can't afford it.
smirnoff
08-09-2005, 06:43 PM
what you have to pay for collage these days i don't blame them...lol
Walter
08-10-2005, 04:53 AM
All copies of Windows XP = Buggy. ;)
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I don't understand how anyone would find this surprising or disturbing - students are broke. What the hell do you expect?! :rolleyes:
That has got to be the most stupid rationalization I have ever heard........the emoticon doesn't change it.
Charging over $500 for ms office is a much greater crime than copying some software. (provided that the pirated software isn't used to make a living)..
Walter
08-10-2005, 04:56 AM
what you have to pay for collage these days i don't blame them...lol
What does a university education actually cost? I don't mean what the student/parents pay...I mean everything.
smirnoff
08-10-2005, 05:12 AM
What does a university education actually cost? I don't mean what the student/parents pay...I mean everything.
about 54110.06 for a four year course.
mind you this doesn't cover everything just the basics and then you get to add on stuff like a car,cloths,food and so on.
basicly its insane.
wow that's more than doubled since I went 10 years ago.
Don't forget books. ;)
Bogie
08-10-2005, 08:18 AM
what you have to pay for collage these days i don't blame them...lol Flawed logic. I know that many jokes and veiled references are made as to "why" software piracy exists, but it does not justify the illegal action. Same excuse could be used for "high rent" and stealing cars or robbing banks.
"Well, your honour, he stole $3000 worth of software because his tuition and upkeep was too high - you must let him go!". Even though educational versions of many software programs, at much lower costs, are available for students, theft seems to be mistakenly justified by "lack of funds to purchase same".
Has our society broken down to the point of "if you can't afford something, then you can steal it"?
The logic of "well, it's ony digital, so no harm done" is flawed also. The product of software companies is digital - that's their business, same as any "solid" product manufacturer.
Like an old science fiction movie, present day software/digital thieves wear "cloaks of invisibility" to carry out their crimes. If a store doesn't lock it's doors at night, is theft "justified" by the open availability of "stock" sitting in plain site and easy to walk away with.
Like driving drunk - if you don't get caught, then it is OK?
unfortunately people will do *anything* if they think they can get away with it.
Bogie
08-10-2005, 08:46 AM
about 54110.06 for a four year course.
mind you this doesn't cover everything just the basics and then you get to add on stuff like a car,cloths,food and so on.
basicly its insane.
Costs increase, like anything else. When our children went to University it worked out to about $10,000 per year - and that was over 10 years ago.
"Stuff like a car" - a car? What does that have to do with University? Convenience, yes; but necessity, no.
Yes, tuitions and educational materials (books, etc.) are too high, and governments should concentrate on assisting students more to elevate the education and knowledge-base of our country, but don't use that as an excuse for crime.
I also agree that the costs for many software programs are too high and "out of reach" for many, but so are other things in life. There are alternatives available for most software programs. Cadillac or Sunfire - what can you afford?
Yep, we live in a society of "haves and have-nots", and it has always been that way. Nothing has changed except the attitude, by many, that "if I can't pay for it, I'll take it". Sad statement.
Tuition and educational costs are high, but so are present day incomes. I never went to University because $1600 (tuition), plus living expenses, were too high at that time. Even worked at the University while trying to study. I tried, but couldn't afford to continue. With six kids in our family, my father couldn't help much with finances. Such is life.
I now have 12 letters after my name (4 certifications), earned as I could afford to do so, in later years. We helped put one of our children through University and two through college. Between ourselves, our children, and "pain in the rear" gov't so-called assistance, higher education for 3 was achieved. No cars, no extras, a bit of hardship, and a huge determination to succeed.
Please, don't justify theft with "cost of living" in an affluent society.
Walter
08-10-2005, 09:31 AM
about 54110.06 for a four year course.
mind you this doesn't cover everything just the basics and then you get to add on stuff like a car,cloths,food and so on.
basicly its insane.
Does the university break even when they charge you $54,110.06 for a four year course?
I have to wonder where the $6.2 billion that the province budgetted for Universities and Colleges will be spent.
I think all the profs just take that provincial dough and put it up their noses.
They should look south where tuition is waay way cheaper to see how they budget their money.
Mista-X
08-10-2005, 03:47 PM
I wonder if he would justify stealing a Porsche using that same rationale. :p
Why not?
Mista-X
08-10-2005, 03:49 PM
This is the point of discussion about software piracy. Can't afford MS Office? Then get 602 Suite or StarOffice, or similar. The "price" argument just doesn't hold water. Graphics suites - well, there are others instead of PhotoShop or whatever.
OEM Windows OS is relatively inexpensive.
I want a better computer, but I won't steal it to get it. I also want a better car, but can't afford it.
That's hardly the point. Especially when you are a student or worker, who needs a specific software suit, it really should be free anyways.
Mista-X
08-10-2005, 03:51 PM
wow that's more than doubled since I went 10 years ago.
Don't forget books. ;)
You think that's bad? It's like 5 times that in the U.$...
Basically I will be owing over $120,000 by the time I get my B.A. because I need enough OSAP for my family.
Bogie
08-10-2005, 04:08 PM
That's hardly the point. Especially when you are a student or worker, who needs a specific software suit, it really should be free anyways.
Hi-Ho Mista-X, sorta missed you around here! You sure do bring out the proletariat point of view. We bourgeoisie believe in the free market and capitalism. Without it we wouldn't have anything worth pirating :d
Frogy
08-10-2005, 04:17 PM
That's hardly the point. Especially when you are a student or worker, who needs a specific software suit, it really should be free anyways.
The fact of the matter is that it isn't free and hence pirated which is theft. I believe Bogie covered the attitude part so I wont repeat it since I'm sure you read the entire thread.
You think that's bad? It's like 5 times that in the U.$...
Basically I will be owing over $120,000 by the time I get my B.A. because I need enough OSAP for my family.
You chose to have the family prior to getting your education so that the additional cost is your's just like it was mine.
In general, I am amazed at the rational justifying theft. "If one can't afford what they want, then it's ok to steal it and if caught, the courts and victims should look the other way" not to mention the "It's my right to have everything that everyone else has even if I didn't work for it and they did" attitude.
btw, welcome back Mista-X
smirnoff
08-10-2005, 04:22 PM
its was a joke people...lol.
now i can understand why they do it but i don't agree with useing school property to do it.
cost for school are beyound what was called high here.
the price i mentioned doesn't include things like a place to live,cloths,food extra.
a car may seem alittle much but if one doesn't have one they still pay for transportation of some sort and the cost works out to about the same.
face it collage cost a insane amount which is beyound the reach of most kids wanting to do it themselves like it did.
parents these days are haveing to foot the bill most of the time now which just adds to there troubles.
and bogie i admired you supporting your kids but next time you may want to notice the ...lol...after a statement before you take it as gospel.
i may understand why they do it but it doesn't mean i support the doing of it and all the more so when its takes away resources away from the kids.
Mr. Apollo
08-10-2005, 08:15 PM
Ummmm why should I pay for a bunch of 1s and 0s?
hbk2k1
08-10-2005, 09:29 PM
Ummmm why should I pay for a bunch of 1s and 0s?
Nicely Put!
glitch
08-10-2005, 09:41 PM
Ummmm why should I pay for a bunch of 1s and 0s?
Touché.
hbk2k1
08-10-2005, 09:49 PM
Costs increase, like anything else. When our children went to University it worked out to about $10,000 per year - and that was over 10 years ago.
"Stuff like a car" - a car? What does that have to do with University? Convenience, yes; but necessity, no.
Other forms of transportation are required and definately is a Necessity. Transportation costs aren't exactly cheap either. Some people pay $100 per month for a Go Train Pass...which is ridiculous.
Yes, tuitions and educational materials (books, etc.) are too high, and governments should concentrate on assisting students more to elevate the education and knowledge-base of our country, but don't use that as an excuse for crime.
Good Point!
I also agree that the costs for many software programs are too high and "out of reach" for many, but so are other things in life. There are alternatives available for most software programs. Cadillac or Sunfire - what can you afford?
I agree with this point, however with today's demanding society and necessities associated with attending university, alternatives are just not good enough. If the course textbook is a 3rd edition for $120, and you get a 2nd edition for $80, well it's not the same is it? Students are still responsible to have the proper books etc. Similiarly, it's not cheap to buy software and the different versions etc. do make a difference. Have the proper equip. software etc....is necessary to be successful especially when you're a student.
I think this issue should be addressed and with whatever money being pumped into the education industry, a plan should be put in place to help minimize student costs.
Yep, we live in a society of "haves and have-nots", and it has always been that way. Nothing has changed except the attitude, by many, that "if I can't pay for it, I'll take it". Sad statement.
Perhaps this statement is ideal/intended for an audience other than a student....and the piracy issue....I think there are bigger fish to fry with your statement than student piracy.
Tuition and educational costs are high, but so are present day incomes. I never went to University because $1600 (tuition), plus living expenses, were too high at that time. Even worked at the University while trying to study. I tried, but couldn't afford to continue. With six kids in our family, my father couldn't help much with finances. Such is life.
Well, that is true if you have a rich mummy and daddy who lets you drive their car and pay your school fees etc....what about the rest of us(including myself) who has to sweat it out to pay school fees and other costs....not everybody earns a great salary. So on top of all these fees, managing a job to pay for school/transportation/car, we still have to put up with the stress/workload to suceeed.....well that is life for some....but NOT ALL!
I now have 12 letters after my name (4 certifications), earned as I could afford to do so, in later years.
I hope I can someday achieve similar goals+qualifications that you have. :)
If the course textbook is a 3rd edition for $120, and you get a 2nd edition for $80, well it's not the same is it? Students are still responsible to have the proper books etc.
That used to piss me off big time when I was attending university. Often, the latest edition would contain maybe 10 -20 additional, and often non relevant, pages from the previous edition (in a 400 page textbook) but the page numbering sequence would change and you'd be screwed trying to look something up using the previous edition.
Book publishers are to blame here. They're always trying to maximize profits by forcing authors to come up with "newer" editions of their previous work so they can charge full pop at the university bookstores :mad:
hbk2k1
08-10-2005, 10:10 PM
Does the university break even when they charge you $54,110.06 for a four year course?
I have to wonder where the $6.2 billion that the province budgetted for Universities and Colleges will be spent.
Excellent Concern!
Lesster
08-10-2005, 10:38 PM
I have to wonder where the $6.2 billion that the province budgetted for Universities and Colleges will be spent.
Hint: Try looking at the profs' salaries. You should find some huge chunks of the $6.2 billion there.
Walter
08-11-2005, 05:10 AM
You think that's bad? It's like 5 times that in the U.$...
Basically I will be owing over $120,000 by the time I get my B.A. because I need enough OSAP for my family.
Why would anyone pay $120K to get a BA when I will bet there are thousands of people out there with doctorates who are being under utilized. And where would a champion of the oppressed, like you, get a $120K....borrow it maybe from the oppresive banks and government or by working for one of those uncaring corporations that enslave the people?
Nice to see you back......if I was a cynic I would think you are a reincarnate of Timmie.
Why would anyone pay $120K to get a BA when I will bet there are thousands of people out there with doctorates who are being under utilized. And where would a champion of the oppressed, like you, get a $120K....borrow it maybe from the oppresive banks and government or by working for one of those uncaring corporations that enslave the people?
right over your head. Try reading. It works...
Nice to see you back......if I was a cynic I would think you are a reincarnate of Timmie.
cynic? lol. Try paranoid... :D
..
Frogy
08-11-2005, 02:59 PM
Ummmm why should I pay for a bunch of 1s and 0s?
Because you didn't put them together now did you, if it was your's (the software created) and you put the time and effort into it, wouldn't you want to get paid for your work? Now I need to debate with myself the pro's and con's of hiring someone with that attitude, could be a good thing that you are willing to work for nothing but maybe your production will be worse because of that fact.
Bogie
08-11-2005, 03:12 PM
This same "argument" could be used for many products, not just digital.
"Why should I pay $79.95 for a telephone that costs $5.00 landed at the distributor's warehouse in Canada?"
"Why should I pay $2.95 for a plastic mug that uses 2cents worth of plastic?"
"Why should I pay even .25 for a bottle of water that nature provides free of charge?"
Answer is the same for all: management, packaging, promotion, distribution, R&D, testing, and - heaven forbid - profit!
... and ... you don't have to buy it! ... and you also don't have to steal it!
One company I was with as VP IT, had spent $150,000 in programming some software, and $1.5 million overall to get things launched. It was "digital", so should we have given it away?
Excellent points Bogie, Frogy. There isn't much of a leg to stand on when it comes to excusing piracy. If I can buy all my software titles, then so can anybody else. I have probably around 15 grand invested in software here trust me I'd love to not pay some of that money. I don't work for free and I don't expect someone else to. It blows me away to hear the excuses. Can't afford it? Don't buy it. Buy something cheaper. What people don't realize is that they are in fact making things worse by not supporting smaller software titles that could potentially develop into better titles giving the 'biggies' even more dominance. If you can't afford photoshop, paint shop pro is 150 bucks and is an excellent alternative. Failing the 150 bucks I'm sure there are even cheaper alternatives.
Bogie
08-11-2005, 04:00 PM
There is one freeware title I use for helpdesk support. They ask for a donation when you download it, but not required. The other day the author sent out a request for donations as he is strapped right now. I donated now, as I did when I first downloaded and decided to use it. Many thanks followed, as I am sure I was one of a small handful who answered his request.
debbie
08-11-2005, 04:06 PM
Educational prices for software is incredibly reasonable.
One reason I may go back in the fall lolol :d
So the student argument doesn't wash. It's the cost of getting an education. Although I do believe the Feds and the Province should loosen things up a bit and allow books and software to be included in tutition deductions. Ludicrous that they are not allowed.
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x86/Z80asm
08-11-2005, 08:40 PM
Well the other alternative is to use the free software. For my C programming course, they offered us a free IDE/Compiler for the C language....complete crap... I just went home and did my assignments in Visual Studio (legit) :D.
Software is outrageously expensive these days, piracy obviously will become prevalent and will continue to do so till the prices for Windows and other software become reasonable.
smirnoff
08-11-2005, 09:11 PM
we basicly have a case of small crooks (the students) and the bigger ones.
neither is helping the system and will you can understand why the students do it it still doesn't make it right to use the school to do it just becuase there pissed.
were does all the money go when they have to shut down schools becuase its too hot inside.
are we paying 3500 for a teachers desk?
Frogy
08-11-2005, 09:11 PM
Software is outrageously expensive these days, piracy obviously will become prevalent and will continue to do so till the prices for Windows and other software become reasonable.
Software and computers are outrageously cheap these days in reality. That excuse holds no water.
Frogy
08-11-2005, 09:13 PM
were does all the money go when they have to shut down schools becuase its too hot inside.
are we paying 3500 for a teachers desk?
If that is how you choose to represent all the additional costs of keeping your desk reserved, then I guess so.
Bogie
08-11-2005, 09:36 PM
As Frogy mentioned, computers are dirt cheap these days, and Windows XP Home OEM is only $112. Many computer retail packages come bundled with Windows and some Windows additional software, sometimes graphics and other software - all under $1000. I remember when 286s were $3500 using DOS and not much else.
Cost of technology these days is low. Fax machines used to be $2500 to $4000 each, now they can be run from your computer at no extra charge (or buy one at less than $100). And, yes, many people still use fax for business.
Software was also more expensive not too many years ago, and it has come down. I remember one business software package I had used that was $12000 and now is just about $1500 (while that still might sound high, a $10500 drop in price, and going from DOS to Windows, is a lot!).
smirnoff
08-11-2005, 10:35 PM
no matter how you guys want to look at it it not even close to cheap.
the software that is now cheap is also out dated and for someone putting themselves through school its a huge weight to shoulder.
i put myself through both collage and university by working two jobs and darn near killing myself.
the system is even more a joke today with money being spent in ways that make as much sense as a rob zombie film.
just because computers are now cheaper doesn't mean this makes things better.
computers go down the cost of books go up and so on and so forth.
i have friends who are still paying off student loans that they could have bought a house with.
don't take my word for it go add up the costs , what i posted was based on 5 years ago and its done nothing but increase since then.
Regarding Windows XP or any other operating system - I agree, there is no excuse when it comes to piracy. With a new computer, it's a reasonable price. (as is the upgrade version)
Same goes for software if it's going to be utilized in an attempt to make a profit - if you take something from the economy, the least you can do it give something back. Ironically M$, and all the other large software companies are guilty of not doing that.
What I have a problem with is charging thousands of dollars for something (it adds up) that's to be used for educational use.
The notion that everyone can afford something because "it's dirt cheap" is asinine. There is one fundamental difference between downloading something and stealing it from a store; that is, the retailer/producer isn't actually losing any money. (they're just not gaining it) How could anyone possibly think that everyone who's using an illegal copy of PhotoShop or msoffice would be otherwise using a legitimate version?
are there not educational versions?
I LIKE EGGS
08-12-2005, 11:51 AM
College student steals software.....
College student takes programming 101.....
College student graduates.........
College student steals more software......
College student gets job @ prestige programming company.....
College student designs revolutionary software.......
NEW College student steals his software......
OLD College student company goes out of business......
OLD College student jobless........
OLD College student steals software.........
------------------------------------------------
Total = Irony
Maybe trade in that bag of pot, packs of smokes, bling bling on your car or a few cases of beer (god forbid) and get the tools YOU require to complete your tasks. Should a carpenter steal his tools cuz he cannot afford them??? It's all about sacrifice.......which I truly believe a lot of students today really lack. Especially the ones that DON'T pay for their education.....what's their excuse???
The ones that do work hard.....I applaud you....the one's that slack off......you get a thumb up the bum!!!!
are there not educational versions?
Yes, but they're still expensive. It's up to educational institutions to provide the necessary software for home use - that doesn't include some crappy free compiler which doesn't work properly half the time.
They are only making a big deal out of it because there are new means of distribution - software piracy has been around as long as computers have.
I LIKE EGGS
08-15-2005, 03:18 PM
Yes, but they're still expensive. It's up to educational institutions to provide the necessary software for home use - that doesn't include some crappy free compiler which doesn't work properly half the time.
They are only making a big deal out of it because there are new means of distribution - software piracy has been around as long as computers have.
However high prices should not justify theft....if that was the case, I would be stealing gas :)
NiTeFiRe
08-15-2005, 03:55 PM
University costs too much money :(
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