View Full Version : More cops a good start...but:
.....much more needs to be done.
By BOB MACDONALD
COMMUNITY policing proved a failure in New York City and it's bound to prove the same in Toronto.
So stated New Yorker Eric Kessin in an e-mail to me following my Aug. 7 column in the Sunday Sun. His was one of a flood of e-mails, letters and phone calls I received following the column's publication.
"As for community policing, it did not work in New York City under (Mayor) David Dinkins, and it will not work in Toronto," wrote Kessin.
"You need to get rid of that socialist mayor (David Miller) and find the equivalent of (Republican mayor) Rudy Giuliani," he urged.
Of course, Giuliani led an all-out campaign to clean up the chronically dirty, garbage-strewn streets of New York -- and to rid the city of street bums and violent criminals, many of them in gangs and dealing drugs. Just like Toronto today.
He called it the "broken window" policy -- meaning that the police would run down even the smallest violent crime and criminals. Combined with tougher sentences by the courts.
Of course, it meant hiring many more police and other law enforcement personnel -- but the results were phenomenal. People who had been visiting Manhattan for decades and were appalled by its descent into a criminal-infested garbage heap could hardly believe their eyes.
DROPPED OFF MAP
The streets were clean and neat; street muggings (a sick New York joke) plunged to nothingness; shootings, knifings, beatings, rapes and the rest of it dropped off the map.
In my Aug. 7 column, I claimed that a society that doesn't defend itself is soon destroyed. After reviewing what a peaceful, clean and crime-free city Toronto was when I first moved here in 1953, I noted how such things as deliberately soft immigration laws were imposed by the Liberals in order to attract more votes to their party.
The strategy worked. The Liberals have consistently won elections both federally and now even provincially. But at the steep cost of watching Toronto become a garbage heap where street bums abound. And where shootings, stabbings, rapes and other violent attacks make our streets unsafe.
In recent weeks, the situation has become even worse as young black men shoot other young black men in taxpayer-financed housing projects. A couple of dozen have been wounded, another half-dozen shot dead, and even young children -- including a 4-year-old boy -- have been among the wounded in drive-by shootings.
Up to now, the problem has been that both Mayor Miller and new police Chief Bill Blair have put their faith in so-called community policing. Meaning that friendly police would walk the beats in a kind of public stroking of the criminal elements. And Miller resisted hiring more police officers.
Besides Kessim, who said he was shocked by the deterioration in Toronto, others expressed similar views.
Danny Smith stated he, his wife and two children moved back to Scotland last year after watching the city deteriorate badly in the past decade.
"The trouble is that people cannot voice concerns as they are deemed racist or not politically correct," he said.
"Your article was spot on," added Smith.
"It is interesting that people I talk to think the same way as indicated in your column," wrote Mary Holliday, of Toronto.
"My husband and I grew up in Toronto and remember when it was safe to do the things (you mentioned) and also as children to go out alone to the (movies) show or Ex," she said.
Glen J. Connolly wrote that he came to Toronto in the 1930s.
"A single murder would be the subject of comment because of its rarity -- at that time, Canada had and used the death sentence," he said.
"Today murders are commented upon because of their everyday occurrence," he noted.
"As for government doing something about the problem; with Grits on Parliament Hill, Grits in Queens's Park and the NDP in City Hall ... it will never happen," warned Connolly.
MORE COPS ON STREETS
Well, at least the political heat became so hot this past week that Miller scuttled back to Toronto, whining that his family vacation in Maine was being interrupted. Then he, along with Premier Dalton McGuinty, announced plans to put another 150 police on Toronto's streets.
However, we're not likely to see any of those cops until next year. Selection, training, bureaucracy, etc.
However, it is a small start. And maybe, just maybe, Rudy Giuliani's "broken window" policy will make it through to Toronto's streets.
Keep turning up the heat, folks.
without commenting on the Sun's conspiracy theories as to why their beloved tory party isn't in office (couldn't be because they currently aren't much of an option...)
I do think immigration policy needs to be completely overhauled.
I do think immigration policy needs to be completely overhauled.
I completely agree, and the sooner the better.
But knowing the feds, they will only tinker with it rather than starting with a blank canvass and rethink the whole legislation :(
Bogie
08-14-2005, 03:17 PM
... "My husband and I grew up in Toronto and remember when it was safe to do the things (you mentioned) and also as children to go out alone to the (movies) show or Ex," ...But this isn't just Toronto, it is almost anywhere. Populations have increased, society is faster paced, etc. Our standard of living has changed, dramatically. With such "progress" comes change.
I always listened to my grandparents, and parents, talking about "the old days", and now I find myself doing the same thing. When I was younger I heard about how much safer it was when my parents were my age. Now I remember how "free" I was to roam as a child. Times change. We are no longer a "locked-in" country, protected from harm.
Immigration to blame? Not really. Our country was built on immigration. Most of our families have only been here "in the new country" from 1 to 3 generations. Mine , both sides, goes back to the late 1600's.
Lack of control on immigration has contributed to crime in a few major centres, like Toronto, and it receives the most press coverage. Making changes to immigration rules/laws is hard to do. Sort of like "closing the barn door after the horse gets out" (in this case "in").
Don't stop lobbying for change. "We" are the government (as slow as it may seem).
BTW ... did "you" (anybody reading this) vote in all elections that you are eligible to vote in? If you don't vote, don't complain. Our voter turnout is totally deplorable. Get involved, talk to your municipal, provincial, and federal representatives, and talk to those who run in the next elections.
Immigration to blame? Not really. Our country was built on immigration. Most of our families have only been here "in the new country" from 1 to 3 generations. Mine , both sides, goes back to the late 1600's.
I beg to differ. The immigrants you refer to are vastly different than those that were allowed in when Trudeau came into power in 1968. He's the one that opened the floodgates to immigrants...often unscreened, unckecked, unskilled and relegated to the "Jane and Finch" urban planning disasters in the GTA.
I'm all for immigration of honest, skilled and hard working people, but Canada must crack down and make sure that we don't allow unskilled people here. That's a recipe for disaster imo.
oh please. Tell me past immigrants who brought their 'gangs' weren't as brutal and as violent as the ones arriving today.
oh please. Tell me past immigrants who brought their 'gangs' weren't as brutal and as violent as the ones arriving today.
Nowhere near as violent, and since you're making the assertion above, please post some stats to prove me wrong :)
...and besides, I wasn't talking about "gangs" anyway. The truth of the matter is this....
You bring in unskilled people into the country. They must often work two low-paying jobs in order to make ends meet so who's looking after the kids??? ...they may come over as a couple but usually end up as single mothers having to look after the kids. Daddy (who is also unskilled) is nowhere to be found and does not help out financially...probably because he's a bum and too lazy to take on a low-paying job but choosing to collect welfare instead.
The way to eliminate this scourge is to only bring people with skills into this country who have a much higher likelihood of making enough money to look after their kids without having to work 2-3 jobs (and thus, keep an eye on them)
If you're unskilled...sorry. You're not allowed into this country. Enough of this free-for-all immigration crap.
As I've said, immigration does need reforms. I've never disputed that. But you tell me groups who have commited horrible crimes from countries like Sicily, Italy, (and many others are any less worse than what is committed today. You ask the poor b****** who got riddled full of bullets in some trunk of a car if it's less brutal. Maybe go ask him for some stats.
As I've said, immigration does need reforms. I've never disputed that. But you tell me groups who have commited horrible crimes from countries like Sicily, Italy, (and many others are any less worse than what is committed today. You ask the poor b****** who got riddled full of bullets in some trunk of a car if it's less brutal. Maybe go ask him for some stats.
Ah yes...the Mafia. Of course we've had our fair share of those hits, but at least they don't go around shooting innocent kids and bystanders like today's gangs do. This is not meant to say that this lessens in any way the killing of people but at least the Mafia guys kill off each other as opposed to innocent people like today's indiscriminate gangbangers (i.e. the 4 year-old kid who was shot last week)
please don't try to say the mafia didn't kill innocent people. Please. Let's not go down that idiotic road.
I have little patience for this constant grandstanding BS that papers like the Sun promote and I'm really not interested in arguing that sort of absolute useless lunacy.
Talking about immigration reform? Sure.
please don't try to say the mafia didn't kill innocent people. Please. Let's not go down that idiotic road.
I have little patience for this constant grandstanding BS that papers like the Sun promote and I'm really not interested in arguing that sort of absolute useless lunacy.
Talking about immigration reform? Sure.
I know you hate the Sun and everything it stands for Tim...and you need to get past that. The Sun, in spite of all it's imperfections, calls a spade a spade unlike the Star, the Globe, or even the (gasp) National Post. You seem to always resort back to "The Sun" in pretty well all your responses. It gets really boring after awhile. Your attitude is that if it's "from the Sun" then of course it's "bad".
You and Walter are both the same and so predictable. Walter quotes a piece from the Sun, you then dismiss it because it's from the Sun, Walter then takes you to task on it, and then you accuse Walter of not "posting facts"....and 'round and round' it goes ad nauseum. You two should get married....after all, we do allow same-sex marriage now lol.
No, actually if you took the time to read what I say (which I doubt) I don't simply dismiss it because it's the Sun, I am well aware that not just the Sun is guilty of bad journalism.
So Yogi, or Yo, or Kelsis, or Cath, or whatever the hell you call yourself these days, no I won't get past it, if it bores you, then don't read it.
Again, if we can get past the grandstanding BS I'm interested in opinions and ideas. Otherwise, it goes down the road of Walter's threads whose sole purpose is to say what is wrong with the 3 Ms, and wonder why no one wanted Harper in.
No, actually if you took the time to read what I say (which I doubt) I don't simply dismiss it because it's the Sun, I am well aware that not just the Sun is guilty of bad journalism.
So Yogi, or Yo, or Kelsis, or Cath, or whatever the hell you call yourself these days, no I won't get past it, if it bores you, then don't read it.
Again, if we can get past the grandstanding BS I'm interested in opinions and ideas. Otherwise, it goes down the road of Walter's threads whose sole purpose is to say what is wrong with the 3 Ms, and wonder why no one wanted Harper in.
lmao
well at least you have a sense of humor about it.
Walter
08-15-2005, 05:53 AM
I completely agree, and the sooner the better.
But knowing the feds, they will only tinker with it rather than starting with a blank canvass and rethink the whole legislation :(
I fail to see what the immigration policy has to do with black on black crime on the streets of Toronto....we do have a problem with our security and background checks and we do tend to screw around too long when it comes to deportations and refugee checks but the vast majority of immigrants are hard working, basically honest people that just want the opportunity to make a better life for themselves and their children.
How many amnesties have we had for illegal immigrants from the islands?
How many amnesties have we had for illegal immigrants from other parts of the world?
Walter
08-15-2005, 06:02 AM
I know you hate the Sun and everything it stands for Tim...and you need to get past that. The Sun, in spite of all it's imperfections, calls a spade a spade unlike the Star, the Globe, or even the (gasp) National Post. You seem to always resort back to "The Sun" in pretty well all your responses. It gets really boring after awhile. Your attitude is that if it's "from the Sun" then of course it's "bad".
You and Walter are both the same and so predictable. Walter quotes a piece from the Sun, you then dismiss it because it's from the Sun, Walter then takes you to task on it, and then you accuse Walter of not "posting facts"....and 'round and round' it goes ad nauseum. You two should get married....after all, we do allow same-sex marriage now lol.
There is no law that says you can't let go of the brass ring and get off the merry go round.....
Walter also quotes articles from the Star, Globe, Post, Now, Eye, Pulse 24, various blogs, etc. and timmie tends to go after the messenger rather than the message.
I think it has something to do with fact that some people with no life tend to go after big, successful guys; ie: Gates, Microsoft, Walmart, etc. because they need someone to blame for their lack of success, popularity, etc. etc. etc.
As far as your last suggestion I already have an hood ornament for my chopper.
There is no law that says you can't let go of the brass ring and get off the merry go round.....
Walter also quotes articles from the Star, Globe, Post, Now, Eye, Pulse 24, various blogs, etc. and timmie tends to go after the messenger rather than the message.
I think it has something to do with fact that some people with no life tend to go after big, successful guys; ie: Gates, Microsoft, Walmart, etc. because they need someone to blame for their lack of success, popularity, etc. etc. etc.
As far as your last suggestion I already have an hood ornament for my chopper.
oh quit your whinin. I respond to what I can see is your stance when you post articles, it's easy to see if you agree or disagree with your posting. So don't hide behind the 'messenger' stuff.
I think Yogi/Yo/Cath/John seems to have it's own hood ornament...
;)
I LIKE EGGS
08-15-2005, 09:28 AM
BTW ... did "you" (anybody reading this) vote in all elections that you are eligible to vote in? If you don't vote, don't complain. Our voter turnout is totally deplorable. Get involved, talk to your municipal, provincial, and federal representatives, and talk to those who run in the next elections.
Sorry but I do NOT agree with this. So what if I did vote, and the person I voted for did NOT win. Does that mean I cannot piss and moan because my guy is not in power. Typical saying as of late. I did not vote because I did not have faith in either candidate. That is my right. I will not vote because society says I should. So when I pay my taxes, pay the governments salary, pay for a government that I had no choice that stays in power....sorry my friend I have just as much right to say whatever the hell I want.....just as much as the cattle that voted.
Bogie
08-15-2005, 09:46 AM
Sorry but I do NOT agree with this. So what if I did vote, and the person I voted for did NOT win. Does that mean I cannot piss and moan because my guy is not in power. Yes - of course you can. You exercised your right to vote, your candidate/party lost, now you continue your lobbying and challenge for change. Go for it!
Typical saying as of late. I did not vote because I did not have faith in either candidate. That is my right. I will not vote because society says I should. So when I pay my taxes, pay the governments salary, pay for a government that I had no choice that stays in power....sorry my friend I have just as much right to say whatever the hell I want.....just as much as the cattle that voted.Trouble is "only the cattle vote"! Too many say just what you say. Change will not happen unless those who are opposed, voice their opinion and make the change happen. Think about it .... if the many thousands, who don't vote for change because "they didn't think anybody was worth voting for", NOTHING WILL CHANGE. The very thing you are against, will continue. Change usually happens one step at a time - rarely a complete flip. And it also requires local participation to get a local candidate to be convinced what the people want. Of course, it may be what the majority of people want, such is our society and our government. Although I have seen many things change due to a minority lobbying more than the majority who are complacent.
Say what you want, but it falls on deaf ears if not directed to the proper people - the candidates who are running, or your existing representative.
Complain ad nauseam, for the rest of your life, if you want.
I LIKE EGGS
08-15-2005, 10:33 AM
Yes - of course you can. You exercised your right to vote, your candidate/party lost, now you continue your lobbying and challenge for change. Go for it!
Trouble is "only the cattle vote"! Too many say just what you say. Change will not happen unless those who are opposed, voice their opinion and make the change happen. Think about it .... if the many thousands, who don't vote for change because "they didn't think anybody was worth voting for", NOTHING WILL CHANGE. The very thing you are against, will continue. Change usually happens one step at a time - rarely a complete flip. And it also requires local participation to get a local candidate to be convinced what the people want. Of course, it may be what the majority of people want, such is our society and our government. Although I have seen many things change due to a minority lobbying more than the majority who are complacent.
Say what you want, but it falls on deaf ears if not directed to the proper people - the candidates who are running, or your existing representative.
Complain ad nauseam, for the rest of your life, if you want.
But at the same time I am not going to vote just because it needs to be done. I refuse to just "pick" someone (or anyone for that matter) that I do not have faith in. To me....it is almost like the last Bush election. Really, your choices where Bush.....or "the other idiot".
Mouse
08-15-2005, 10:42 AM
At least we are lucky enough to vote Green, Commie, Marijuana, whatever. We just don't have the guts to send the message.
The U.S. are not. It's all preordained by back room boys in the States.
Bogie
08-15-2005, 11:08 AM
But at the same time I am not going to vote just because it needs to be done. I refuse to just "pick" someone (or anyone for that matter) that I do not have faith in. To me....it is almost like the last Bush election. Really, your choices where Bush.....or "the other idiot".
US and Canada cannot be compared - different system in many ways. We do not, directly, elect the various party leaders. And we do not, directly, elect our Prime Minister or Premiers.
As MouseMeat pointed out, we have many candidates, in many parties (small or otherwise), to vote for. So what if they don't win - your vote counts in other ways. A minority party that receives more votes each election, gains strength through time. A minority party receiving a noticeable amount of votes does gather attention. This "attention" needs momentum after election also. The "fight" does not end with a defeated election attempt. Our parliamentary system is based on "opposition" to the elected party to make sure legislation passed has heard the voice of "the people", and it is a matter of record.
Read Canada's history, closely, and see what opposition, through representation (not violence) has achieved. The NDP (and their predecessor party names), for example, while never in power federally, has achieved much success in opposition.
I have seen many MPs get more done for their ridings, while in opposition, than while their party was in power. Many things go on in provincial and federal parliament daily procedings than is ever reported by the media. The "day-to-day" business of government is not always by confrontation. These small successes are not "mass" newsworthy, so you never hear about them.
Bogie
08-15-2005, 11:29 AM
Getting back to the original post in this thread - about "more policing"
Of course, Giuliani led an all-out campaign to clean up the chronically dirty, garbage-strewn streets of New York -- and to rid the city of street bums and violent criminals, many of them in gangs and dealing drugs. Just like Toronto today.
He called it the "broken window" policy -- meaning that the police would run down even the smallest violent crime and criminals. Combined with tougher sentences by the courts.
See the bold and Red items above. This is what is required more than anything else.
Our existing police officers get very frustrated when all their efforts to capture crminals leads to light sentences, suspended sentences, reduced sentences due to "time served while waiting trial", sentences for multiple crimes rolled over top of each other (3 crimes by 2 years as a 2 year sentence overall), and insane parole board decisions.
"Life" should mean "Life", especially for premeditated and "no doubt" murder. If we got rid of capital punishment, the least we can do is incarcerate these low-life for "Life".
Increase fines so that they are a real deterrent. A $500 fine for a rich person is like a mosquito bite - who do I make the cheque to? See ya again next time!
Caught drunk driving once - make it hurt. High fine and loss of license that is noticeable. Second time - lose your car and your license - period! It is presumed, and rightly so, that a drunk driver "caught", even the first time, has driven drunk many times and evaded capture.
Commit a crime with a gun - really make it hurt. Do the crime - do the time ... and a long time. Every crime committed witha gun has the potential to turn deadly. The intent of the gun is to imply death or to kill out-right, plain and simple.
I LIKE EGGS
08-15-2005, 11:56 AM
As MouseMeat pointed out, we have many candidates, in many parties (small or otherwise), to vote for. So what if they don't win - your vote counts in other ways. A minority party that receives more votes each election, gains strength through time. A minority party receiving a noticeable amount of votes does gather attention. This "attention" needs momentum after election also. The "fight" does not end with a defeated election attempt. Our parliamentary system is based on "opposition" to the elected party to make sure legislation passed has heard the voice of "the people", and it is a matter of record.
I agree....however again....I did not say that I do not vote because my guy might not win. I said that I did not have faith in ANYONE this time around.....Person, Place OR Party.
But you are right, back to the topic @ hand :)
I agree....however again....I did not say that I do not vote because my guy might not win. I said that I did not have faith in ANYONE this time around.....Person, Place OR Party.
But you are right, back to the topic @ hand :)
I'm with Bogie on this one. We have many candidates that can be an alternative to the reigning 2 and I would think it's healthy to foster growth in the smaller parties rather than not voting at all, which in opinion if it's not accompanied by any actions to voice your opinions, is a complete waste. So I do agree with Bogie on this, don't complain if you don't vote, -or do anything to voice your opinion-.
my 2 cents.
I LIKE EGGS
08-15-2005, 01:24 PM
I'm with Bogie on this one. We have many candidates that can be an alternative to the reigning 2 and I would think it's healthy to foster growth in the smaller parties rather than not voting at all, which in opinion if it's not accompanied by any actions to voice your opinions, is a complete waste. So I do agree with Bogie on this, don't complain if you don't vote, -or do anything to voice your opinion-.
my 2 cents.
Why should I foster growth on somthing (party) or someone (elected official) I don't believe in. So what you are saying is that I "have" to vote in order to have an opinion???
I pay taxes = their salaries. When they are running OUR country....I have every right to opinionate how they do it.
At the end of it all promises are always made and in most cases never fulfilled. It's bad enough that we as a country have to pay for their mistakes or their actions (and at times lackthereof). I did not "NOT" vote because I felt that "my vote does not make a difference" OR "that my party will not be the one on top". Again, I did not have faith in ANY one particular party or person.
There are many things in life where people are elected to be in charge of certian things.....WE did not decide their presidency......does that mean we still don't have the right to opinionate?
I don't think *not* voting does a thing either. Well actually, maybe it does. It let's the ruling party of the day probably get re-elected, because you certainly aren't going to support an opposing party, much less support one that can form a strong, possibly an effective opposition. No one is going to agree with the whole parcel of a party. Again it's your choice not to vote and that's fine, but to me it's says you don't care. Unless you do something besides.
I LIKE EGGS
08-15-2005, 01:49 PM
I don't think *not* voting does a thing either. Well actually, maybe it does. It let's the ruling party of the day probably get re-elected, because you certainly aren't going to support an opposing party, much less support one that can form a strong, possibly an effective opposition. No one is going to agree with the whole parcel of a party. Again it's your choice not to vote and that's fine, but to me it's says you don't care. Unless you do something besides.
You are correct. I don't care. I don't care to be lied to. I don't care to support ideas and values that only have me 10% convinced. I don't care to elect someone just because I have to in order to validate opinion. I don't care to vote for someone I don't believe in. I don't care to follow the masses of tunnel vision and voting for the sake of voting. I did not care to further fund the rulers of the country....that i do not believe in.
You keep telling me that I did not support a party and you are missing the big picture. I WAS NOT 100% CONVINCED THAT ANY PERSON OR PARTY AT THE END OF THE DAY WAS GOING TO EITHER A: ACHIEVE WHAT THEY PROMISED OR B: HAD ANY FAITH IN THE FATE OF OUR FUTURE AS A COUNTRY. SO regardless of who or whom the ruling party of the day was. It does not mean a hill of beans to me because I did not care for any person or party at the last particular election. So my support means nothing when I was on the fence about everyone. My decision would have been based on haste not mindset. So why should I go and vote....simply put....just because. How is that fair to any party or person or our country? I wonder how many people just voted Liberal just because. Just because they are comfortable with their ways.....but not with the individual. That they have been shafted by Liberal ways over the years but are just doing for the sake of comfort? How does that make their opionion any MORE just than mine? What because they checked a box just like everyone else???
hence your right not to vote.
;)
I LIKE EGGS
08-15-2005, 02:05 PM
hence your right not to vote.
;)
At the same time it does not take away my right to opinionate. That is like saying someone that immigrates and cannot vote due to citizenship, should have no rights to opinionate either.
sure. You can 'opinionate' all you like. But it's only words. That's fine. I think Bogie's original point (and I agree with him) is complaining about the government and not expressing your opinion by voting is well, just complaining. Unless you can convince me not voting somehow actually does something.
I LIKE EGGS
08-15-2005, 02:18 PM
Well as I am sure most can agree with.....even with voting.....did it really do something besides elect an official? At this point what does your opinion really do even if you did vote? So with that being said what does your voted opinion DO vs my non voted opinion....it is still falling on deaf ears. How is your opinion any better or worse just or unjust than mine?
well of course? Isn't that the whole idea of voting? If more people starting to think perhaps it might be wise to vote for a smaller grassroots party (or whatever) don't you think that might change the political landscape a little? Of course there are more things besides voting that can be done if voting doesn't cut it for you. Again, people are of course free to express opinions etc., but if someone complains and does nothing not even voting... sorry. Useless. That's my opinion.
debbie
08-15-2005, 02:35 PM
In Ontario the most important way not to vote is to Decline Your Ballot.
It is so easy.
1. Go to the Poll
2. Get your name checked off the list
3. Immediately hand your ballot back to the deputy returning officer.
This is known as a Protest Vote and is counted and taken seriously - moreso than a Spoiled Ballot.
I wish more people would excercise this right.
It's covered in Section 53 of the Ontario Election Act. http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/DBLaws/Statutes/English/90e06_e.htm#BK119
The Feds have something similar but I don't have the info handy.
Bottom line is as they say at Elections Ontario, "When you don't vote, you let others speak for you."
Which is quite different than say having an opinion.
In Ottawa Chuck Cadman's one vote made a huge difference.
I LIKE EGGS
08-15-2005, 03:02 PM
In Ontario the most important way not to vote is to Decline Your Ballot.
It is so easy.
1. Go to the Poll
2. Get your name checked off the list
3. Immediately hand your ballot back to the deputy returning officer.
This is known as a Protest Vote and is counted and taken seriously - moreso than a Spoiled Ballot.
I wish more people would excercise this right.
And that is what I do. Just no one asked. THEREFORE I have just as much right to an opinion as someone else that participated in election process.
I LIKE EGGS
08-15-2005, 03:04 PM
well of course? Isn't that the whole idea of voting? If more people starting to think perhaps it might be wise to vote for a smaller grassroots party (or whatever) don't you think that might change the political landscape a little? Of course there are more things besides voting that can be done if voting doesn't cut it for you. Again, people are of course free to express opinions etc., but if someone complains and does nothing not even voting... sorry. Useless. That's my opinion.
Again you are leftballing me. If I did not like any of the participants or what their parties stood for then I should not just roll a die and pick someone for the sake of picking someone just so I am entitled to complain. Tunnel visioned Canadian are made to believe that voting makes a difference. Did your voice get heard by your elected officials and the supporting party when you complain?
Also.....complaining about your governing bodies does not say alot about the faith that you put into these same people you voted for.
debbie
08-15-2005, 03:22 PM
And that is what I do. Just no one asked. THEREFORE I have just as much right to an opinion as someone else that participated in election process.No one asked because you had already stated.........
I did not vote because I did not have faith in either candidate. That is my right. I will not vote because society says I should. So when I pay my taxes, pay the governments salary, pay for a government that I had no choice that stays in power....sorry my friend I have just as much right to say whatever the hell I want.....just as much as the cattle that voted. Declining your ballot is the exact same thing as voting. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news - but you voted.
I LIKE EGGS
08-15-2005, 03:44 PM
No one asked because you had already stated.........
Declining your ballot is the exact same thing as voting. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news - but you voted.
But I did not vote for anyone. So that is where the argument lies....
Walter
08-16-2005, 05:55 AM
Getting back to the original post in this thread - about "more policing"
See the bold and Red items above. This is what is required more than anything else.
Our existing police officers get very frustrated when all their efforts to capture crminals leads to light sentences, suspended sentences, reduced sentences due to "time served while waiting trial", sentences for multiple crimes rolled over top of each other (3 crimes by 2 years as a 2 year sentence overall), and insane parole board decisions.
"Life" should mean "Life", especially for premeditated and "no doubt" murder. If we got rid of capital punishment, the least we can do is incarcerate these low-life for "Life".
Increase fines so that they are a real deterrent. A $500 fine for a rich person is like a mosquito bite - who do I make the cheque to? See ya again next time!
Caught drunk driving once - make it hurt. High fine and loss of license that is noticeable. Second time - lose your car and your license - period! It is presumed, and rightly so, that a drunk driver "caught", even the first time, has driven drunk many times and evaded capture.
Commit a crime with a gun - really make it hurt. Do the crime - do the time ... and a long time. Every crime committed witha gun has the potential to turn deadly. The intent of the gun is to imply death or to kill out-right, plain and simple.
Amen.....but what are we hearing from the politicos, police, etc.? It is our fault that there is not enough for the kids to do, it is our fault that they can't get decent jobs, it is our fault that they join gangs, etc., etc.
Let's admit that there is a very small element in society that are beyond help and lock them away so they don't present a danger to society.
I LIKE EGGS
08-16-2005, 08:23 AM
Amen.....but what are we hearing from the politicos, police, etc.? It is our fault that there is not enough for the kids to do, it is our fault that they can't get decent jobs, it is our fault that they join gangs, etc., etc.
Let's admit that there is a very small element in society that are beyond help and lock them away so they don't present a danger to society.
I sort of agree that it is the parents fault. Kids that are left to fend for themselves without any extra activities or more family time will tend to get more influenced by friends, tv, music videos, movies or video games. My family was "too busy" with life and did not spend a lot of time with me. So what did I do....spent time with a bad circle of influence. However what makes me different from most is that I saw that it was destructive towards my future.
I sort of agree that it is the parents fault. Kids that are left to fend for themselves without any extra activities or more family time will tend to get more influenced by friends, tv, music videos, movies or video games. My family was "too busy" with life and did not spend a lot of time with me. So what did I do....spent time with a bad circle of influence. However what makes me different from most is that I saw that it was destructive towards my future.
Sure that's a part of it. It's also a part of it that the justice system let's them walk with minor slaps on the wrists. There are many aspects to the picture, but instead I tend to hear from different sides of the political spectrum their brands of a blame usually focusing on one thing, the righteous right and their don't givem anything lock up the SOBs and forget about them, and the looney lefties throwing gobs of money and hoping for the best. And it goes on, and on.
I LIKE EGGS
08-16-2005, 08:47 AM
Sure that's a part of it. It's also a part of it that the justice system let's them walk with minor slaps on the wrists. There are many aspects to the picture, but instead I tend to hear from different sides of the political spectrum their brands of a blame usually focusing on one thing, the righteous right and their don't givem anything lock up the SOBs and forget about them, and the looney lefties throwing gobs of money and hoping for the best. And it goes on, and on.
You're right, throwing gobs of money at people that clearly cannot be rehabilitated is insane. Just look @ Bernardo. How much is it going to cost this country to keep him locked up when we could just put him to death. Do you think he is EVER going to be set free??? What purpose is it going to serve society to have him in jail for the rest of his life??? Especially at the cost of Canadian tax dollars....to me that is criminal.
As far as kids getting a slap on the wrist. Perhaps they are looking at it this way. Kids that go to jail really have not learned anything especially since you put all the animals in one cage, they are going to learn from each other. All they are doing is educating themselves to be more criminally apt. On the other side of the coin the fear of going to jail does not persuade them to become more civilized and less criminal. Either way it's a vicious cycle. More one on one time with councellors and less time with the other animals might stand a better chance at rehabilitation. Almost like saying "you are your own company".
Walter
08-18-2005, 05:57 AM
"As for government doing something about the problem; with Grits on Parliament Hill, Grits in Queens's Park and the NDP in City Hall ... it will never happen," warned Connolly.
This is the recipe that led to making our police force social workers with guns. And not only did they corrupt the police but also the criminal justice system. No matter how you cut it left wing bleeding hearts have only one goal in life.....to shift the blame from the criminals to society at large.
as always, the righteous right sees it with blinders on.
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