ATI/AMD Invited to respond. On no Vista drivers for All In Wonder Line.

[Les Shaw]

I find I am not the only one that is upset with the lack of support and information on drivers for the TV tuners on some high end and high priced video cards.
There is Forum on Microsoft Technet where other All in wonder and Vista users can post that they are upset with the lack of information and being left in the dark.

http://forums.microsoft.com/TechNet/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=1285430&SiteID=17

[smirnoff]

No tv tunner drivers /no app or neither?

[Les Shaw]

Just got off the phone with a Public Relations person that told me he Also had that card.
H told me that the driver developer left ATI/AMD after eight years so he is going to find out for me what ATI/AMD will get me a response.
So don't through in the towel yet , loyal AIW users.

[smirnoff]

We can only hope.

[MOOGLY]

The blame really should be on MS in this case I can understand being upset over ATi/AMD stating it was compatible but the real issue here is Vista and it's DRM.

I am hearing similar issues with pro audio cards with SPDIF most if not all of the higher end cards have no answer as to when Vista drivers are going to come out.

[Les Shaw]

Well looks like we have a response, it is a statement with a work around and a promise to get a fix for us.
So happens I have the Beyond TV software so I will try it now and will look forward to the next ati/amd driver release.

From ATI/AMD

[Exmortis]

I have an HTPC running 4 tuners with Beyond TV as well. It will never be upgraded to Vista until I absolutely have no other choice. BTV 4.6 is said to support Vista, but none of my tuners are supported yet.

[smirnoff]

It should work since beyond tv doesn't run as a service like present ati t200 drivers do.

They should be able to get it too work but its unlikely that the built in software in vista is going to work with these cards before the vista service pack and maybe never.

Still even if we get struck with using third party software its a small price to pay to get the tv working again.

[Les Shaw]

Ok I tried , still no TV .. I cry alone
..:nnk:

[smirnoff]

No surprise there as there no drivers yet.

[Mr. Apollo]

The blame really should be on MS in this case I can understand being upset over ATi/AMD stating it was compatible but the real issue here is Vista and it's DRM.

I am hearing similar issues with pro audio cards with SPDIF most if not all of the higher end cards have no answer as to when Vista drivers are going to come out.
I don't see how it's MS's fault, it's not like the DRM policy was a big secret. ATI/AMD just didn't get the drivers done in time.

[Exmortis]

The blame really should be on MS in this case I can understand being upset over ATi/AMD stating it was compatible but the real issue here is Vista and it's DRM.

I fail to see how DRM has anything to do with this. HDCP is something that happens between the hardware card and the monitor. Vista has nothing to do with it.

And speaking of DRM, it's not like Microsoft had a choice. To be CableLabs compliant and to support HD DVD/BluRay, they were forced to do it. Blame the industry instead!

[Lesley]

I fail to see how DRM has anything to do with this. HDCP is something that happens between the hardware card and the monitor. Vista has nothing to do with it.

And speaking of DRM, it's not like Microsoft had a choice. To be CableLabs compliant and to support HD DVD/BluRay, they were forced to do it. Blame the industry instead!

Microsoft is big enough and rich enough, if they had stood their ground it's possible that the "industry" would have been forced to comply. After all to make products that won't work on a Windows PC would cut into their market share in a big way. There are a lot of people out there with with high end multimedia PCs instead of standalone dvd players, recorders and PVRs. MS should have stood up for it's customers.

[smirnoff]

The drm is part of it but most of it is do to the changes made in direct 3d and the like.

To have better control for the drm and the new formats drivers that require a server part no longer work.

Which is why the 550 and 650 ati tv tunners have no issues since they no longer run on drivers with a server part.

But it is mostly ms fault since they drivers did fuction untel the very last few versions of vista so neither ati or nvidia had alot of warning.

I supect ati is going to figure out something shortly but i doubt true support is going to go beyound vista.

Lesley is correct though ms could have easly gone the other way as they have that kind of power.

[Exmortis]

Microsoft is big enough and rich enough, if they had stood their ground it's possible that the "industry" would have been forced to comply.

I completely disagree. Without content, your technology will die before it's even born. There would be no high-definition if there wasn't some sort of protection for content providers. HD DVD and BluRay would not have a chance without AACS, HDCP, etc. A lot of standards were drafted outside of Microsoft's circle of influence. For instance, CableCard was drafted several years ago and Microsoft had absolutely zero weight on it. A software manufacturer has no role in dictating what cable operators should do. However, in order to have Vista MCE being able to tap into digital cable, it has to comply with CableLab's standards. Microsoft isn't in control of everything and can't be expected to control everything. Sony (with MGM) and Disney hold a lot of cards when it comes to content.

Heck, even Apple had to bend to DRM rules. Steve Jobs made a very eloquent editorial against it (after years of being forced), but it won't do a thing.

Your money and size has absolutely no weight over the desire of someone else wanting to protect his material. I fail to see how everything is Microsoft's fault here.

[smirnoff]

Apple didn't bend to anything they did what they wanted .
The drm allowed them to control what you did with the music in a very new market and let them retain control.
Jobs made the statement recently about the drm being useless and should be gotten rid of but this had more to do with being smart and saying what people want to hear. (even the hardcore apple people thought it was suspect)
Remember were talking about the same company that was going to pull out of france because they didn't like apples drm.

Ms could have done what they wanted to and the rest would have had to go along with it since 95% of the computers in the world run on windows and there is no decent replacement for it.
Still there not stupid and know they can't push too much or the risk loosing money and in the end its all about the money and not the people.

One wonders how far this drm is going to control with it being so out of control already.

[Exmortis]

Apple didn't bend to anything they did what they wanted .
The drm allowed them to control what you did with the music in a very new market and let them retain control.

Absolutely not. They had to or no music labels would've followed. The iTunes store started when all labels believed the Internet was used for piracy. The DMCA is an actual law that forced Apple to.


and saying what people want to hear. (even the hardcore apple people thought it was suspect)

That doesn't make business sense. And piss off the content providers that make your store what it is?


Remember were talking about the same company that was going to pull out of france because they didn't like apples drm.

Pull out of France? When did they announce that? By the way, DRM that follow the DMCA is a subset of the DRM imposed by iTunes. Apple may have gone above and beyond what is dictated by the DMCA, but they did not have a choice, but apply the foundation of it. And this is what our argument is about. They don't have a choice or have zero music to sell from the major labels.


Ms could have done what they wanted to and the rest would have had to go along with it since 95% of the computers in the world run on windows and there is no decent replacement for it.

That statement doesn't make sense. What does Windows have to do with CableLabs? What does Windows have to do with the DVD Forum or the BAG?

[smirnoff]

I agree wtih your logic but thats the problem what makes sense to us doesn't to them.

Its all about money, pure raw greed.

Heres just one of the articles about apple and france ,you can see how they really want to drop the control.
http://www.forbes.com/markets/2006/03/21/apple-frenchbill-0321markets15.html

Apple can more or less do what they want in this area just like ms in the os area since they are more or less the only decent legal option out there.

I agree apple had to go along but they used it to there advantage to control what people used to play the music.

Jobs is no ones fool and knows people aren't happy about being stuck with limited control and knows now though that itunes could like stand on its own without the drm control.
Add that to the fact that he knows a chance at good press and can see the the drm is useless as it is he jumped at the chance to get some good press . ( notice how his statement poped out at just the same time when people are pointing out vistas flaws)

Most of the bussness on this planet run on windows be it sony,cable companies and if they want to avoid a costly change over and wait period tell support catchs up then they would have to go along with what windows did.

Its all about money.

[Exmortis]

By the way, Smirnoff. Get your facts about the Apple vs. France battle. It's about making their music interoperable with competing players and therefore creating a technical standard for digital music. Has nothing to do with rights management.

[Exmortis]

Most of the bussness on this planet run on windows be it sony,cable companies and if they want to avoid a costly change over and wait period tell support catchs up then they would have to go along with what windows did.

Huh? What does running Windows have to do with it? How does that come into play when designing standards like CableCard and QAM? I mean, if Honda decides to develop a new engine, do they have to consult with Microsoft? The two are totally unrelated. So I still fail to see what Microsoft has to do here...

[smirnoff]

By the way, Smirnoff. Get your facts about the Apple vs. France battle. It's about making their music interoperable with competing players and therefore creating a technical standard for digital music. Has nothing to do with rights management.


Read on you only skimmed the top.

Apple used the dmca as a excuse rather then risk giving up control of such a money maker?

Like lesley i agree there is much more to this and ms is more then powerful enough to do what it wants but they chose greeds rather then us.

Still we both have our views and neither of us is likely to give ground.

I got to run ad grab cat food (if i want to not get bitten).

I always enjoy debating with you Exmortis but this is likely one of those moments that it smarter for us both to disagree...lol.

[Exmortis]

Apple used the dmca as a excuse rather then risk giving up control of such a money maker?

They're protecting a business model. It has nothing to do with digital rights management. In fact, they have no control over the rights of content as they don't own it. I'm not saying that they're right, but it's apples and oranges from the real DRM we were discussing.

And you failed to show me the connection between Microsoft and CableLabs.

[smirnoff]

Think about it this way CableLabs computers run windows and there bussness depends on there computers.

If ms chose to ignore things and gone with the publics desires CableLabs would have had to go along with it or risk loosing money.

They don't want to risk the cost of replacing all the software be it the os or other hardware that needs windows to run or the down time involved in waiting for support to catch up.

It wouldn't be worth the cost for them to go to do so.

I do agree ms can only push it so far though since if things were too much to swallow then the companies would swallow the cost.

I do agree theres a line that ms must keytoe to but i don't agree is as fine as you think.

[Exmortis]

Think about it this way CableLabs computers run windows and there bussness depends on there computers.

Are you suggesting that MS should've held them hostage? Obey our guidelines or we'll disable your PCs? Do you really honnestly think Microsoft wants to get into another antitrust debate with the DOJ like in the 90's?

Smirnoff, you're not making sense in your arguments. Microsoft has NO dealing powers over the drafting of standards that have absolutely ZERO to do with PCs. 5C and QAM have nothing to do whatsoever with PCs and they were done years before development started on Vista. I still don't get how you can blame Microsoft for something the industry as a whole demanded.

Yet Microsoft is to blame for it all...

[smirnoff]

And that is were we disagree.

You think they have no dealing power and iam think that any company that can put up close to 720 sats in orbit has plenty of power.

They have there fingers in everywhere these days.

Its like the dvd format wars being more or less over when the porn industry decided on a format to use.

Should they have done it isn't for me to say but i do think they should have drawn a line inbetween what they wanted and what we wanted .

[Exmortis]

You think they have no dealing power and iam think that any company that can put up close to 720 sats in orbit has plenty of power.

What does putting satellites in orbit have anything to do with it? You keep pulling out unrelated stuff with no clear link to the subject at hand. Boeing puts up plenty of satellites up there so why don't you blame them too? Now that I think of it, why not also blame Lockheed-Martin? They do satellites too. And there's Telsat and Echostar as well. They're to blame as well?


They have there fingers in everywhere these days.

They do not. If you had followed the 90's antitrust legal battle, you'd know they had their wings clipped and for good reasons. But I'll humor you. You say they have their fingers in everything. Well, let me ask you once again...

What does Windows have to do with 5C, QAM and CableCARD?


Its like the dvd format wars being more or less over when the porn industry decided on a format to use.

Common myth that has been destroyed hundreds of time over. The porn industry will have zero effect on the fate of HD DVD or BluRay. This is an old and tired analogy that happened during the VHS vs. Beta days when there was no internet and no other ways to get it. Porn doesn't need high definition, but the media loves to think that what once worked will always work forever.

[smirnoff]

The point is there a extremly powerful company.

To be honest i stunned that you would think that ms isn'y very widespread,ms software,games,consoles, and so on to the point it gets crazy trying to list them all.

If you can't see my point about cablecard and the like i doubt iam going to be able to make you see it.

As for vhs and beta that was a really bad choice of a example since the porn industry choose vhs and though they may not have been the deciding reason for that format lasting they were a very large part.

Still i doubt we are going to agree on this so all leave further debate tell later.

Not to mention were both quilty of hijacking les thread which is a bad by both of us.

[Exmortis]

The point is there a extremly powerful company.

To be honest i stunned that you would think that ms isn'y very widespread,ms software,games,consoles, and so on to the point it gets crazy trying to list them all.

Where did I say they weren't widespread? You said they had their fingers in everything and I challenged you to specify where exactly they were involved or had anything to say in the standards I mentioned. You're twisting my words and twisting reality. You jumped all the way to satellites.

Content providers banded together to lobby and push DMCA. There was little Microsoft can do, but somehow you're locked into "hate" mode to say that it's because of Microsoft. They should've ignored the rulings that almost broke them apart in the 90's to blackmail everyone. Very twisted logic. Microsoft is hated when they control everything and now hated because they didn't try to control everything.

The fact is that they had NO CHOICE, but enforce DRM in order to be CableLabs compliant so maybe someday people will be able to tune to QAM channels using MCE. I'm sure you'd be the first to blame them if they hadn't taken the steps to offer this feature. Or not offer the foundation to support HDDVD or BDR.


If you can't see my point about cablecard and the like i doubt iam going to be able to make you see it.

You made none. You failed to show any connection whatsoever. Microsoft is not a cable operator and therefore has no power over that industry. Suggesting that they should strong arm via Windows blackmail them is ridiculous.

Microsoft is not the FTA.


As for vhs and beta that was a really bad choice of a example since the porn industry choose vhs and though they may not have been the deciding reason for that format lasting they were a very large part.

You spoke of the "DVD war". You made no mention of VHS so don't act like you were making a good point.

[smirnoff]

Check you pm.

If you wish to continue after that then do it without me this is les ati thread and not ours.

[winemaster]

Just saw the show and Les's rant. This is just the beginning with copyright issues. By 2010 most computers will have something called a TPM chip which make this look like freedom of use.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Computing

It may be academic though, since by that time we will have had our right to surf where we want on the internet taken away from us.

[Les Shaw]

A Group of us have found a lawyer intrested in a class action suit, to see if we can get replacement cards or some type of compensation.

[Digiital]

And this is why I have not bought or ever wanted another ATI, after a bad experience back in the 90s I told myself to never get another ATI and I haven't. My card was like 1 yr old and they stopped to support it!!! Nvidia all the way for me, even the darn 8meg cards are still supported.

[smirnoff]

I should mention that if your using say a tv wonder card you can use DSCALER since it can talk directly to the older bt chipsets.

It wont work for aiw cards sadly.

Fortunaly after some reading i think i have a fix for vista users by using 7.2 beta drivers which do have wdm drivers.

http://downloads.guru3d.com/download.php?det=1577#download


Of course theres still no software but thats a minor matter as theres plenty of apps like beyound tv/PowerCinema 5 or windvd (not to sure about windvd) that can be used to watch tv once drivers are installed.

Ps..Its amazing what you find when your sick as a dog and waiting for the painkillers to kick in...lol.

[Les Shaw]

Yupper the Drivers you found Smirnoff seem to allow me to use Beyond TV to watcfh the tube, I haven't tried other applications yet

But what it tells us is microsoft and Ati lied

[smirnoff]

And now that this super hero has finshed his mission he is taking his antibotics and cough meds and crawling back into bed...lol

Must be kryptonite around here or something.