Should photo radar be brought back in Ontario?

[T_Totler]

Pressure is growing on the Ontario government to bring back photo radar on the province's highways in a bid to curb speeding drivers and street racers.

The move comes in the wake of several fatal crashes in the Greater Toronto Area blamed on street racing and as police struggle to slow down speeding drivers responsible for a growing death toll on area highways...
Full story here (http://www.thestar.com/News/article/231813)

I personally don't think photo radar will do anything to curb street racing. As good ole' OPP Sgt Cam Woolley said tonight on the news "what good is photo radar when all it does is capture a picture of a plate and that same car causes an accident 2 kilometres away".

It often doesn't necessarily penalize the driver of the car.

Some view it as a simple "cash grab" by the government.

My view is that photo radar might be good at deterring those that speed a little over the limit on occasion, but are otherwise responsible drivers.

Your thoughts?

[Otis]

No, make it mandatory for all cars to have speed limiters installed and operating at all times and enforce it to a maximum speed of 105 km/hr.

What's good for truckers should be good for cars too.

Right T? ;)

[T_Totler]

No, make it mandatory for all cars to have speed limiters installed and operating at all times and enforce it to a maximum speed of 105 km/hr.

What's good for truckers should be good for cars too.

Right T? ;)

I never go beyond 125 km/h (for passing manoeuvres) eventhough my speedometer goes up to 240 :d

[lbjgh]

We don't need knee-jerk reactions to "rare" occurrences. The 400 series of highways were designed in the 50's with a maximum speed of 70mph for cars that didn't even have seat belts. 70mph is the unofficial speed limit now.

Camera's are the perfect solution to get rid of the Provincial Liberlas though. :)

A better idea would be to limit local roads to 30km/h as these roads are statistically more dangerous than highways...

[tflash]

speed limit on the highways in Alberta are at 110Km/h and its not even a 400 series style setup so I'm thinking the 400's should be at least 120km/h with the way they are built

[Steven]

I avoid 400's whenever I can. I usually take hiway 2 from Bowmanville to Whitby. I got 620 Kilometers on my last tank of gas. Pretty good for a big ol 1993 with a V8.

[BillD]

No, make it mandatory for all cars to have speed limiters installed and operating at all times and enforce it to a maximum speed of 105 km/hr.

What's good for truckers should be good for cars too.

Right T? ;)

What trucks are limited to 105 kph? Certainly none of the trucks I saw on the highway this past weekend were.

[Otis]

What trucks are limited to 105 kph? Certainly none of the trucks I saw on the highway this past weekend were.You must have missed the news Bill, Ontario is going to make it mandatory for trucks to have speed limiters installed in them with a maximum speed capacity of 105km/hr.

[Mouse]

It often doesn't necessarily penalize the driver of the car.

Not directly, but if I loan you my car, then get a "greetings" in the mail for $240, or I can't renew my licence, how do you think I will react??

Show be the money, is how.

"Can I borrow your car again?" "No *&^%ing way!!!"


You must have missed the news Bill, Ontario is going to make it mandatory for trucks to have speed limiters installed in them with a maximum speed capacity of 105km/hr.


This will be exceedingly fun.

The centre lane, always a truck favourite, will become not unlike a slalom course for cars doing 120, or better.

"Get out the jaws of life, Charlie."

[BillD]

You must have missed the news Bill, Ontario is going to make it mandatory for trucks to have speed limiters installed in them with a maximum speed capacity of 105km/hr.

I did miss the news. I can see how that will only make things worse when trucks try to pass each other on the two lane sections of the 401. It is bad enough now when they try and block both lanes for several miles while they try to pass.

[Thaiwoo]

No, make it mandatory for all cars to have speed limiters installed and operating at all times and enforce it to a maximum speed of 105 km/hr.

Not a good idea. You need some extra speed to pass in case something happens. I don't know about you but I hate to be beside the big trucks, especially in the summer. You never know when a tire blows out. The last thing I want is drive besides them at same speed for miles on miles.

Speed limits are the law and if you get caught speeding, you pay the price. Don't see why this should be a cash grab. You do the crime, you pay the fine.

Don't support it but if it catches some of these people that drive in excess of 120 on the 401, I'm all for it.

I grew up in Switzerland where they had photo radar for 20+ years. Just came back from Holidays from there and it doesn't slow down people much.

I saw a show on TV from Germany where they drive on the Autobahn and an onboard camera recognizes license plates and then checks in the system if the driver has insurance, all automatically. If not it alarms and the cops pull the car over and pull his plates. Big brother is watching.

[BillD]

One other thing to consider is that if you are limited, what do you do when driving in another jurisdiction, with higher speed limits? For sure, you need to be able to do more than 105 to safely pass, on 2 lane roads, and highways. For me , the big problem with the 400 series highways is the range of speed people are doing. Raising the speed limit won't make the sub 100s drive faster, and it will just encourage the 140+ers. i came back from kingston yesterday, and the while the average speed was probably around 105 (unusual) there were still lots of people that were in the 140 to 150 range. Also consider, that if your speedo says your doing 100, your probably a few kph under. I see speed limiting as a knee jerk reaction, that avoids the issue.

[Digiital]

heck no. How many people would slam on the breaks when they see a van on the side of the road, only to speed up and then slam on the breaks again. I wonder how many people were rear ended because of those damn vans.

Speed doesn't kill, it's stupidity that does.!! Look at the 407, no one drives 100km, more like 120++++ And it flows. In comes the idiot who wants to drive 100km/h in the left lane and people start to weave in and out to get around them.

[T_Totler]

Not directly, but if I loan you my car, then get a "greetings" in the mail for $240, or I can't renew my licence, how do you think I will react??

Show be the money, is how.

"Can I borrow your car again?" "No *&^%ing way!!!"
All well and good, except that the conviction is registered against the owner of the vehicle, and with that comes insurance premium implications against the owner, not the driver (assuming the driver is not the owner).

I'm not sure about demerit points though. I can't remember now if a photo radar speeding conviction carried any demerit points. I seem to recall that they didn't, for the very reason that the driver was not necessarily the owner, and thus, demerit points didn't get registered against the owner for that reason.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong on this :rrg:

[Mouse]

Demerit points are against your drivers license, not the vehicle one.

So there would be no insurance ramifications, as currently set-up, because there would be no driver identification.

[T_Totler]

Demerit points are against your drivers license, not the vehicle one.

So there would be no insurance ramifications, as currently set-up, because there would be no driver identification.
So, other than paying the fine, where is the real deterrence?

By that I mean the owner pays the fine, collects from the driver, but there is no record of a speeding infraction against either the driver or the owner.

For me, personally, a conviction for speeding and demerit points against my driver's license is far more of a deterrence than a mere monetary fine with no other consequences.

That's why I don't think photo radar is the panacea that some people think it is.

[network_guy]

Photo radar has nothing to do with street racing, nothing at all. Photo radar is simply a way for the government to get more money from people who marginally speed. Photo radar will not decrease or deter street racing, it is already against the law and there are already penalties for it, how is one more penalty in the form of photo radar going to make a difference? Is the government so naive that they really think a street racer will think twice because of the threat of photo radar? No, they just want the extra revenue. I would be ok with photo radar if they ONLY ticketed street racers, and not everyone who speeds.

[BillD]

What 's the difference between a street racer and a speeder? How many kph?

[network_guy]

Street racers do more then just speed, they drive recklessly without thinking about other drivers on the road and with little care for their safety or others. A speeder is someone who exceeds the speed limit, but does not drive dangerously or recklessly, in my opinion.

[Deathhawk78]

You can do like most speeders and reacer's do, just to avoid cops and radar. Change the liciense plates for stollen or false plates. This way they can take as many pics that they like and when they are done they put the original plates back on.

Dont tell me poeple dont do this cause I've done it lots of time and so have allot of other poeple. There are ways around it if your a risk taker, since they are speeding seems to me we are allready risk takers.

[Mouse]

You can do like most speeders and reacer's do, just to avoid cops and radar. Change the liciense plates for stollen or false plates. This way they can take as many pics that they like and when they are done they put the original plates back on.

Dont tell me poeple dont do this cause I've done it lots of time and so have allot of other poeple. There are ways around it if your a risk taker, since they are speeding seems to me we are allready risk takers.

OMG, where to start?? :fmk:

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g158/MouseMeat/Smilies/potd.gif

[Mouse]

Side note: I wonder how many "new members" are flooding this poll??

The numbers have swung pretty fast, from previous viewings.

:ish:

[Bogie]

From most comments here all I can see is that most people want the ability to go over the speed limit. Seems to be a "driving" psychological urge to break the law. If the limit is 80, many go 100. If it's 100, then go 120. 50 then 60 or 70. School zone no exception.

I have no problem with photo radar. They usually set it up at "x" kph over the limit.

Guess we live in a society with "the need for speed".

If everyone did the speed limit it would reduce gas consumption by millions of gallons (ooppss ... showing my age ... billions of litres then). Would be safer, less stressful on anybody travelling, and the world won't fall apart in the process. Not to say what it would do to pollution levels. Oh, I forgot, "not my problem".

.

.

[Ziggaa]

I don't think speed is the problem for the most part...Its bad and dangerous driving....You can go fast and be responsible....Its the tailgators, people who weave in and out of traffic and aggresive dirvers that are the true prolbems imo

[T_Totler]

You can go fast and be responsible....
You'll have to qualify that....

If you're doing 140-150 on a highway with a posted limit of 100, is that being "fast and responsible"?

I would think not ;)

[Thaiwoo]

Well you can't say it's not fast!;)

[Joker]

Why are most of the no side so concerned about the points? In Austria, where I am from, photo radar is in action for at least 30 years. If they catch you you will get a "nice" letter where you are asked who drove the vehicle, if you do not send in an answer they assume its you and you will get the penalty. Now I can hear the howlig and crying, "I do not know". To bad, it is your vehicle and you should know who drove it any way. If there is a hit & run or some other crime commited with your car the cops will show up at your home and ask the very same question, I dont think a "I dont know" would let you off the hook, would it?
The other point is the low speed limit, that is true. But if they set the radar to + what ever it is not such a big problem.
One other comment was the clear visible mini van, now that was stupid. In Austria they have much smaller units, mounted on the front bumper of an un marked car "parking" some where, no cops in sight. One other way they use are boxes on polls beside the street, way more boxes than cameras, so you never know which one is "loaded". Since they need no officers to "babysit" the cameras the cops can und do watch for other problems than speeding.
Greetings, Joe.

[Mouse]

Rat on your friend, or get the penalty yourself (and the insurance implications too).

Kind of draconian, but I like it. :tooths:

[Thaiwoo]

In some countries the radar photo actually needs to show the drivers face too. If it is not clear you can actually claim that it wasn't you.

These days in Switzerland they have the radar setup so they can check your speed, if you wear seat belts and if you're using your cell phone (illegal in Switzerland). And as Joe mentioned, you get a nice letter with a bill in your mail.

A lot of places the radar is fix mounted somewhere and therefore no cops needed. Same goes for red light cameras.

[Mouse]

"All's fair in Love and Road Deaths." ;)

[BillD]

I don't think speed is the problem for the most part...Its bad and dangerous driving....You can go fast and be responsible....Its the tailgators, people who weave in and out of traffic and aggresive dirvers that are the true prolbems imo

While there is some truth to what you are saying, the tailgaters and aggressive drivers, are also the ones who travel at excessive speed. Most days the 401 looks like a NASCAR track. What is a "responsible" speed at night? Everytime I travel from Kingston, at night (in light traffic), I see many people overdriving there headlights, by a wide margin. I can usually make the trip without touching my gas or brake, yet people go by me like I'm standing still. I don't think those people are driving responsibly.

[Thaiwoo]

Just thinking of the Autobahn in Germany where there's no speed limit on some stretches. Wonder what would be considered a reasonable speed there?

Years back BMW and Mercedes would factory limit the cars at 250 km/h.

[Law]

I don't think speed is the problem for the most part...Its bad and dangerous driving....You can go fast and be responsible....Its the tailgators, people who weave in and out of traffic and aggresive dirvers that are the true prolbems imo

Glad I saw this post. I was thinking the same thing but it seems everyone is focused on speeding. I defintely think its more a fault of wreckless, angry, inexperienced or distracted drivers.

I cant even count all the times im on the 401 and see guyus on motorcycles weaving recklessly in and out of lanes, in the middle of two lanes and so on. they are hard to spot when driving like that and hitting one while doing a lane change you think is safe would be hard to avoid.

Then there are the cell phone users, the falling asleep drivers , the angry "i have to get there quick so get the F out of the way " truck drives who tailgate and blast their horn if you are only going 120 in the center lane.

ITs all much more than speed.

[Law]

While there is some truth to what you are saying, the tailgaters and aggressive drivers, are also the ones who travel at excessive speed. Most days the 401 looks like a NASCAR track. What is a "responsible" speed at night? Everytime I travel from Kingston, at night (in light traffic), I see many people overdriving there headlights, by a wide margin. I can usually make the trip without touching my gas or brake, yet people go by me like I'm standing still. I don't think those people are driving responsibly.

So they go by you. what harm is there in that? did they try to turn into your lane like you werent there?

Driving past is alot better than driving into.

[BillD]

Yes sometimes they did turn into my lane like I wasn't there. I was just using overdriving one's headlights, as an irresponsible act, when addressing the post in question. I could care less whether they go past me or not. Regardless, exceeding 120 at night is irresponsible (probably 100). Headlights, regardless of how bright they are, are aimed to go a certain distance, and if you are going faster than you can stop within that distance, you are driving unsafely.

[Lesster]

This seems more appropriate (severe sarcasm) here than in the Last Laugh forum:
For anyone who has commuted or even just driven on the 401 through Toronto, the 2007 version of the Ontario Driver's Handbook has been rewritten to include the following guidance. . ..

1. Turn signals will give away your next move. A confident Ontario driver avoids using them.

2. Under no circumstance should you maintain a safe distance between you and the car in front of you, because the space will be filled in by somebody else, putting you in an even more dangerous situation.

3. The faster you drive through a red light, the less of a chance you have of getting hit.

4. Warning! Never come to a complete stop at a stop sign. No one expects it and it will result in you being rear-ended.

5. Never get in the way of an older car that needs extensive bodywork, especially with P.Q. Or Maritime plates. With no fault insurance, the other operator has nothing to lose.

6. Braking is to be done as hard and late as possible to ensure that your ABS kicks in, giving a vigorous foot massage as the brake pedal violently pulsates. For those of you without ABS, it's a chance to strengthen your leg muscles.

7. Never pass on the left when you can pass on the right. It's a good way to prepare other drivers entering the highway.

8. Speed limits are arbitrary figures; given only as a suggestion and are not enforceable in Ontario during rush hour, especially in the GTA.

9. Just because you're in the left lane and have no room to speed up or move over doesn't mean that an Ontario driver flashing his high beams behind you doesn't think he can go faster in your spot.

10. Always brake and rubberneck when you see an accident or even someone changing a tire. This is seen as a sign of respect for the victim.

11. Learn to swerve abruptly without signalling. Ontario is the home of high-speed slalom-driving . . . Thanks to the Department of Public Works, which puts pot-holes in key locations to test drivers' reflexes and keep them alert.

12. It is tradition in Ontario to honk your horn at cars in front of you that do not move within three milliseconds of the light turning green.

13. To avoid injury in the event of a collision or rollover, it is important to exit your vehicle through the windshield right away. Wearing your seat belt will only impede your hi-velocity escape from danger.

14. Remember that the goal of every Ontario driver is to get ahead of the pack by whatever means necessary.

Thank You From the Ontario Registrar of Motor Vehicles.

Plus my own 2 cents: Always look at the pavement just feet away from your bumper - use your tunnel vision - looking too far ahead makes you aware of situations before you are right at them. How stressful is that!!!!!

[Joker]

[QUOTE=Lesster;201782]This seems more appropriate (severe sarcasm) here than in the Last Laugh forum:
For anyone who has commuted or even just driven on the 401 through Toronto, the 2007 version of the Ontario Driver's Handbook has been rewritten to include the following guidance. . ..

Love it :tkl: