London bombers die in explosions?

[Bogie]

London bombers all died in explosions according to Hindustan Times (http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_1428828,001301780003.htm)
In a major breakthrough in the July 7 London serial blasts probe, police on Tuesday said all the four suspected bombers were reportedly British-born and died during the terror attacks.

While three bombers died in separate Tube attacks, one was killed in the bus blast at Tavistock Place. Deputy Assistant Commissioner of Met Police Peter Clark said all the four men were from Leeds.


The BBC still appears to report only one dead, possibly others also (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4676577.stm).

[bigzig]

whoa thats crazy

[Bogie]

BBC update (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4676577.stm)

Sir Iqbal Sacranie of the Muslim Council of Britain said they had received the news from the police with "anguish, shock and horror".

He said: "It appears our youth have been involved in last week's horrific bombings against innocent people.

"While the police investigation continues we reiterate our absolute commitment and resolve to helping the police bring to justice all involved in this crime of mass murder. Nothing in Islam can ever justify the evil actions of the bombers."

The breakthrough in the anti-terror investigation came after a day of raids in West Yorkshire and the seizure of a car at Luton rail station.

[jovin]

BBC update (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4676577.stm)

Sir Iqbal Sacranie of the Muslim Council of Britain said they had received the news from the police with "anguish, shock and horror".

He said: "It appears our youth have been involved in last week's horrific bombings against innocent people.

"While the police investigation continues we reiterate our absolute commitment and resolve to helping the police bring to justice all involved in this crime of mass murder. Nothing in Islam can ever justify the evil actions of the bombers."

The breakthrough in the anti-terror investigation came after a day of raids in West Yorkshire and the seizure of a car at Luton rail station.

I think too much is being made of the inference that the potential terrorists may have been Muslims. Everybody knows that the Irish IRA terrorists were/are Catholic. I have never heard anybody condemn the Catholic Church for this or the fact that it never really spoke out against that terrorist organization. No doubt there are fundamental Islamic clerics who actively promote terrorism, but the idea that they can motivate young people to give up their lives as suicide bombers for religious objectives such as getting the favours of virgins in heaven is a much-simplified made-in-Hollywood rationale. You need to go back to history to begin to understand the mentality of these misguided people. Religion is certainly part of it, but it's hardly the principal reason for their irrational behaviour.

[frostyone]

Nobody ever denied the IRA were Irish, and not the Protestant kind either.

There are fanatical violent Muslims who detest the West.
And yes, it is relevant.

Today:
"Mr Bouyeri killed Mr Van Gogh in a ritualistic murder committed in the name of radical Islam. Mohammed Bouyeri, 27, said he acted out of his religious beliefs and that he would do "exactly the same" if he were ever set free. I acted purely in the name of my religion," he told the court in Amsterdam.

You can read Osama bin Laden:
"You are the nation who, rather than ruling by the Shariah of Allah , choose to invent your own laws

You are a nation that permits acts of immorality, and you consider them to be pillars of personal freedom.

You are a nation that exploits women, You use women to serve passengers, visitors, and strangers.

Prepare for a fight with the Islamic Nation.

The Nation of Martyrdom; the Nation that desires death more than you desire life:

Think not of those who are killed in the way of Allah as dead .They rejoice in a grace and a bounty from Allah,

You are well aware that the Islamic Nation, from the very core of its soul, despises your haughtiness and arrogance.... and will be victorious over all other religions.

Lots of other claptrap ravings from Bin Laden , but you get the drift.

"the idea that they can motivate young people to give up their lives as suicide bombers for religious objectives such as getting the favours of virgins in heaven" is not
a total fabrication.

Just because you're not a religious nut case, jovin, doesn't mean they aren't.
Lunatics they may be, but they believe are fighting a religious war.
One where suicide attacks are encouraged with the promise of rewards in paradise.

[jovin]

Although I'm not in agreement with your counter-argument, frostyone, I do respect your point of view and I thank you for not calling me "an apologist for the terrorists" as someone else on this forum has branded me.

The point I was trying to make is that, modifying your sentence, "There are fanatical violent 'Catholics' who detest 'England', but their religious affiliation was never brought to bear on their terrorist actions in the past on English soil.

[Walter]

Although I'm not in agreement with your counter-argument, frostyone, I do respect your point of view and I thank you for not calling me "an apologist for the terrorists" as someone else on this forum has branded me.

The point I was trying to make is that, modifying your sentence, "There are fanatical violent 'Catholics' who detest 'England', but their religious affiliation was never brought to bear on their terrorist actions in the past on English soil.

You are great at trying to divert attention from the issue at hand....the terror attacks in London. Why do you constantly do that? Mcginty screws up you blame Harris. Saddam gases thousands and you blame Bush. Now we have terrorists who claim to be carrying out the wishes of Mohammed and you blame the Catholics (you fail to recognize that there is also a Protestant faction).

But you do make a good point about the promise of virgins, even though this was publicly stated by religious zealots, and the reason this is not a valid promise to use with the Irish terrorist....you might be hard pressed to find an Irish virgin in heaven.

[Bogie]

:hys:

...you might be hard pressed to find an Irish virgin in heaven.

[Mouse]

What a terrible thing to say about Irish nuns.

[Bogie]

What a terrible thing to say about Irish nuns.
But .... they wouldn't be "available" under the "exemption" clause :D

[jovin]

You are great at trying to divert attention from the issue at hand....the terror attacks in London. Why do you constantly do that? Mcginty screws up you blame Harris. Saddam gases thousands and you blame Bush. Now we have terrorists who claim to be carrying out the wishes of Mohammed and you blame the Catholics (you fail to recognize that there is also a Protestant faction).

But you do make a good point about the promise of virgins, even though this was publicly stated by religious zealots, and the reason this is not a valid promise to use with the Irish terrorist....you might be hard pressed to find an Irish virgin in heaven.

But perhaps I was right in questioning the religious background of the terrorists as a likely non-issue. It now looks like the terrorists were well-educated British citizen born and educated in Britain of Pakistani extraction. Not your normal crazed, fundamental Muslim extremists as we all come to expect in these types of attacks.

By the way Walter you really do need to read these posts more carefully. Your responses such as what you said above " Now we have terrorists who claim to be carrying out the wishes of Mohammed and you blame the Catholics" are truly incoherent and makes one suspicious that English may not be your first language.

[SuperFriend_XP]

If only the 'Islamic Nation' Bin Laden speaks of were true. For the past fourteen hundred years there has been nothing but seperation between muslim organizations. Would you really want to believe a handful of radicals, from a few of the DOZENS of sects, to be the representatives of prophet Mohamed, who are "carrying out his wishes"?

I wouldnt believe that, just as I wouldn't believe the IRA to be the purest of Catholics.

[Lesley]

I think that anyone who willingly blows themselves up and kills innocent people in the process falls into the crazed category, no matter how well they were educated. Perhaps it makes them even a bit more nuts because a good education should have made them aware of the fact that their deaths wouldn't change a thing - expecially as far as the Brits are concerned. They're not a people easily intimidated or pushed around.


But perhaps I was right in questioning the religious background of the terrorists as a likely non-issue. It now looks like the terrorists were well-educated British citizen born and educated in Britain of Pakistani extraction. Not your normal crazed, fundamental Muslim extremists as we all come to expect in these types of attacks.

By the way Walter you really do need to read these posts more carefully. Your responses such as what you said above " Now we have terrorists who claim to be carrying out the wishes of Mohammed and you blame the Catholics" are truly incoherent and makes one suspicious that English may not be your first language.

[Blueharp]

But perhaps I was right in questioning the religious background of the terrorists as a likely non-issue. It now looks like the terrorists were well-educated British citizen born and educated in Britain of Pakistani extraction. Not your normal crazed, fundamental Muslim extremists as we all come to expect in these types of attacks.

By the way Walter you really do need to read these posts more carefully. Your responses such as what you said above " Now we have terrorists who claim to be carrying out the wishes of Mohammed and you blame the Catholics" are truly incoherent and makes one suspicious that English may not be your first language.


Educated = Sane?

Doesn't matter to me what extraction they where or are going to be in the future. Anyone who decides to kill themselves in this context is not mentally fit. That's the reason they do it. The fact they are encouraged by certain proponents of a faith they believe in, makes it more troublesome.

[jovin]

Of course, being educated does not imply sanity but it does imply the develpment of basic rational thinking and adoption of acceptable behaviour. With regards to your other point, there is no evidence to date to indicate that they were influenced in carrying out their terrorist acts by religious fanatics.

[Blueharp]

If you want to go down the road of implications...

These 4 (now they say a fifth is possibly at large) were known to each other, they shared the same goals and the same faith and it can be implied that they were themselves the religious fanatics who influenced one another.

[Walter]

But perhaps I was right in questioning the religious background of the terrorists as a likely non-issue. It now looks like the terrorists were well-educated British citizen born and educated in Britain of Pakistani extraction. Not your normal crazed, fundamental Muslim extremists as we all come to expect in these types of attacks.


I'm sorry......what is there citizenship and place of birth and social status got to do with the fact that they murdered and maimed innocent civilians supposedly at the behest of Muhammed.

By the way Walter you really do need to read these posts more carefully. Your responses such as what you said above " Now we have terrorists who claim to be carrying out the wishes of Mohammed and you blame the Catholics" are truly incoherent and makes one suspicious that English may not be your first language.


Grammar police raising their ugly heads? What part of the implication do you not understand.......I can change from worms to crickets if you would like.


...

[Walter]

Of course, being educated does not imply sanity but it does imply the develpment of basic rational thinking and adoption of acceptable behaviour. With regards to your other point, there is no evidence to date to indicate that they were influenced in carrying out their terrorist acts by religious fanatics.

What are you saying? That this was not part of the jihad declared by bin laden and other Muslim extremists? What was it.....a repressed schoolboy prank? Good Gawd (I hope I am not chastised for bringing religion into this discussion) man do you have some proof that these people were NOT religious fanatics.

[jovin]

Walter, you need to read some history books. Many people in this world harbour intense and extreme hatred for other people in this world, including other tribes within their own country, that go back many, many centuries and these hatreds are not necessarily related to religion.

With respect to your comment about grammar police, can you please point out where I implied that "Now we have terrorists who claim to be carrying out the wishes of Mohammed and you blame the Catholics". Let me reiterate, you have a problem understanding plain English, not in terms of grammatical syntax but in terms of inventing conclusions that don't make sense.